Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Dr. Random podcast. I'm Dr. Sarah and here's the deal, we don't do boxes here.
Every episode is different, every conversation has its own flavor and no topic is off limits. If you're looking for predictable, this isn't it. But if you want real conversations, honest takes and a touch of intellect in the best way, you're in the right place. This is Dr. Random podcast.
Good morning. This is Dr. Random podcast and I'm Dr. Sarah and here with little Ava. And this morning I'm so excited. We're going to be talking about leadership and the science of well being. And our guest today who is an expert on this topic is Christina Shea and she is actually joining us from across the seas. She's over in Europe right now and I want to introduce Christina Shea and I actually met her in Pepperdine and we are. I'm just going to introduce her and let her talk a little bit about herself and introduce her journey.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Great, thank you Dr. Sarah. It's nice to be here this morning with all of you. I'm Christina Shea and yes, I'm based in Dublin, Ireland at the moment, but also spend most of my time in Italy. I moved to Italy from San Francisco about a year ago in the pursuit of what I was interested in my research around cross cultural impacts of well being, particularly in leadership in non western contexts.
So I spent 15 years in financial and leadership roles. My last leader role before I moved to Italy, I was actually deputy director of a very large prison system in the state of Nevada and really felt a significant dip in my own well being and found myself working 80 hour weeks and really struggling with a lot of these high demand and very difficult jobs that many leaders face, particularly in the U.S. but I would argue in most leadership roles and really decided at that point it was time for me to embark on what I consider to be the replenishment of my own well being, which is moving to Italy and having this time to really think more deeply about leadership, well being, leadership research and the collective aspects of well being.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Great. And the energy that actually matters. For your research found that positively energizing leadership predicts employees well being better than other popular leadership styles like transformational or authentic leadership. And for someone who's never heard this term before, what does a positively energizing leader actually do differently on a Tuesday morning that makes their team thrive?
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a great question.
So positively energizing leadership was a construct that one of my mentors, Dr. Kim Cameron, created at the University of Michigan. So Dr. Kim Cameron is one of the fathers of positive organizational scholarship and was very influential in the early days when the center for Positive Organizations was created at the University of Michigan and is still very much influential in this space.
And Dr. Cameron was really interested in what is called positive deviance. So positive deviance is something that we look at when we're going into systems and rather than focusing in on what's going wrong in systems, we're inherently focusing in on what's going right.
And what we're saying is that this idea that deviance exists on a continuum, so negative deviance can be seen as ill being or burnout or these sorts of constructs that when we actually shift onto the other side of the spectrum into positive deviance, what we find is we find that there's thriving and all these things that are above the line.
Dr. Kim Cameron particularly was interested in this early phenomenon. And what he did was he and a group of scholars actually interviewed a bunch of organizations that were going through downsizing.
So the organizations were experiencing layoffs and different forms of change processes.
Dr. Cameron and a group of scholars went in and did some interviews with about 600 leaders. And they asked them questions about positive deviance, what actually happens and what's going right in the organization from a leadership perspective. And what they found was 15 attributes. There's actually a lot more, but they ended up refining them to about 15.
And these attributes are really associated what we call virtuous behaviors.
So the behaviors are transcendent wisdom behaviors that associated with gratitude, optimism, hope, and really this idea that leaders are putting others ahead of themselves, not in servant or authentic or transformational ways, but in ways that relationally connect with the employee. So this construct exists of positively energizing leadership as virtuous behaviors with relational energy. So relational energy is this idea that when you're in relationship with another person after the interaction, you're feeling this sense of sense of vitality. You're feeling this energy where you want to do more and be more just by the relational connection that exists. So this is what the phenomenon is studying. And what we find is leaders that exhibit these behaviors, such as helping your team flourish without expecting a payback, or really being concerned about your employees well being and asking them what you can do or what they're doing to really optimize their well being, does have significant ramifications in the workplace with engagement and also with employee well being more broadly.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: That just made me think of a lot of different things that that could be applied to for all different genres of you know CEOs out there, people that own businesses. I think that what you just discussed is just priceless wisdom and systems thinking well being research, your research takes a distinctly multi level systematic approach looking at individual leaders, team dynamics, social networks and organizational culture simultaneously. Most well being research still focuses on fixing individuals. And what excites me about studying well being as an emergent, you as an emerging property of interconnected systems. And what are you discovering about how positive energy or vitality actually flows through organizational networks that we've been missing with traditional individual focused approaches?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a great question.
And it's true most leadership research, a lot of leadership research is really looking at self reports or what we'll see is the perception of a leader through the lens of a follower.
And then we have constructs like leader, member exchange and different things in leadership theory that are looking at these, these how does a leader kind of interact with a follower? But what we're seeing more from one of my mentors, Dr. David Day from the McKenna School, is that realistically this idea of collective leadership. So when we look at leader development, leader development is the individual capacities for a leader to grow and build these individual skills, knowledges and abilities. And leader and leadership development is this idea that in these systems or in these teams and in these collective groups, the individ actually takes what they've learned and they apply it behaviorally to create these teams that thrive.
And so from my perspective, we know a lot about individual differences, we know a lot about personality traits, we have a lot of evidence based research that kind of shows a lot of this. But really I think the future of leadership and leadership research is going to be focusing in on what's really happening in organizations from these collective group dynamics. And we're starting to see emerging leadership or emerging research right now.
And one of the things I'm super excited about is this idea of psychometric network analysis, social network analysis, and really understanding within an organizational system how energies and different things actually move and change over time within networks. So rather than looking at leadership and leadership theory as this trait state or even this individual dyad experience, what if it's actually something different where teams and groups are coming together and experiencing leadership? Managers being considered leaders are experiencing leadership phenomenons in times when we don't even realize it's happening or exists. So I think the future of leadership is really much more of a collective experience where we're understanding how some of these variables or elements are interacting with one another and being able to understand really an organization. So that then we can create interventions that are most helpful for leaders and organizations to thrive.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Great. Okay. Yeah. And the appreciative inquiry gap, despite decades of, you know, practitioners using appreciative inquiry coaching, this strength based approach that focuses on what's working rather than what's broken, you discover there's virtually no peer reviewed research testing whether it actually works.
So why do you think such a massive gap exists? And what are the risks of this disconnect between practice and evidence?
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great point. Yeah. I mean there's very little research. I wouldn't say there's no. But in general, there's very little research in general about appreciative inquiry, particularly because it's a change process, a positive change process that was invented by Dr. Cooper Ryder, Ron Fry and other scholars at Case Western University.
In the positive change model, it's a complex process. It's a 4 or 5D model that takes you through these different stages of discovery, dream, destiny, design, and kind of when you're moving through these stages and to be able to structure an experimental design or quasi experimental or an empirical research study really does take pretty rigorous research methods. It takes really trying to understand what's going on with some of these methods having measurable outcomes that are validated and reliable. And so for me I see why the research, and there's such a research gap because it's very rigorous.
However, this. More recently, I designed an intervention that was based on a systematic review and a pretty deep dive that's getting published that is actually hopefully one of the first random control trials of appreciative inquiry coaching methods. And I had the great privilege recently of actually building it into an AI coach.
So the Sherlock Coach, I'm super excited about it. People will be able to experience it.
It's called Sherlock Super Coach and it's the first native coaching AI. And really this coach is designed to be able to reach people at scale because one of the things we face, that's one of the most difficult things in leader and leadership development is this access barrier. So not only is appreciative inquiry inaccess, but leadership and leadership development more broadly is unaccessible to most people. And so I imagine a world in which more people will have access to leader and leadership development, evidence based development.
And I see AI coaching as a particularly important facet of this. So the future is full of opportunities and particularly around AI coaching. Of course we have to consider ethics, of course we have to understand we need more research. But I'm super excited to think about the future of AI coaching and more broadly appreciative inquiry in AI coaching and thinking about young people having access to this best possible self for these future storytelling selves where they're able to really imagine and dream of their best self in, in into the future.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: I love this. This is so amazing. And I even think you threw in a little word in there random with your research which like ooh, okay, but that's so interesting. I really want to dive deep more into that. And we'll continue to want to seek out all you're doing, of course. That's so interesting. All your research emphasizes strength based approaches and positive energy.
How do you respond to the concern that this could create workplaces where real problems get swept under the rug because everyone's too busy focusing on the positive?
So where's the line between healthy optimism and toxic positivity?
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a great question.
You know, it's interesting I study positive methods because one of the things about methodologies and being a mixed methodologist is this idea that different methods work for different reasons at different times.
And a positive deviant methodological toolkit is just as important, if not equally as important as focusing on negative outcomes.
From my perspective, I think it's important that there are contexts is when a negative deviant mindset will work and do work. For example, when an organization potentially is facing a financial crisis and actually having a fix oriented mindset I think is necessary or when you're doing complex what if problem solving and you're trying to look into the future to find everything wrong so that then you can kind of prevent things from happening with strategic plans and such. I think these are very important skills to have and I think they're very important. But even also as important is understanding what it takes to get from baseline to plus 10 so or what it takes to get from an organization that is doing well, but an organization that wants to be great. And one of my mentor said when we focus in on what's going bad, the opposite of that is just the opposite of not bad is just bad or it's not necessarily good.
And so when we focus in on the opposite of good, how do we get to extraordinary? And so this is the idea when we're really thinking about these toolkits that are necessary at when are the toolkits of positive deviance and negative deviance, are these looking into some of these characteristics more appropriate and why?
And I think when it comes to this idea that when we go in and focus on what's going right, we don't focus, we don't get what's going wrong. But what's interesting to me over the years of doing this research is when we go into, for example, with an appreciative inquiry mindset, or we go into systems where we're focusing in on what's going right, or for example, in the positively energizing leadership construct where we're focusing in on these virtuous behaviors that leaders are doing to really create thriving organizations, what we find is opportunities for being able to fix the size that aren't working. So although when we do go in with this positive lens, we think that times we won't find what's going wrong, unfortunately we find what's going wrong. It's just through a different reframing and a different kind of wording and understanding of what's happening.
So this is one of the keys with positive methods that I think is really beautiful is we go in looking for what's going right and we find all the opportunities for what's going wrong along the way.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: And culture well being and what doesn't translate. So you're conducting research in both Italian and Irish. I love that because I love Italian. In both Italian and Irish healthcare settings. So what have you learned about well being interventions that work brilliantly in one culture but fall flat in another? And what does this mean for companies trying to implement universal well being programs?
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a great question. I think from my perspective, one of the reasons why I was drawn into this work in Italy and in Ireland is because my father and my grandfather and my family in general from the south of Italy, from Calabria, were Calabrese. And so in general, when I was raised in San Francisco, I always felt this underlying kind of call to go to Italy. And as I started studying the well being science and getting deeper and deeper at the University of Pennsylvania and at Claremont University into the quest for understanding really what creates thriving organizations and what creates optimal well being, not only is it an incredibly individual process, it's also very much culturally dependent. And most of the research, the large amount of the research, although that's starting to shift now, a lot of it is really focused on weird populations. It's really focused on this Western context. So for example, when we go study well being in India, for example, or China, it's such a different context than it is when it's coming from the US that's inherently individualistic. Maybe it's focused on more things such as well being, being lumped into wellness programs or well being associated with, oh, having more wealth potentially to be able to have access to some of these things. In other cultures, it's inherently embedded. So for example, in Italy well being, there's a relational energy that exists in Italy more broadly that in general well being is happening in so many facets. For example, over food. In Italy, well being is really this collective experience over food. You know, most of their culture shutting down for a couple hours during the middle of the day to really spend time with families. And in these collective processes in Italy, there's really nothing fast.
I mean, in Milan and the north, there's lots of things that are happening, but in general there's no to go coffee cups, there's no to go anything. You're really enjoying cappuccinos and espressos in relationship with people in cafes and experiencing this relational energy. And so for me, I think the positively energizing leadership construct goes so well with the Italian context because of the nature of the relational energy that exists there. In Ireland. It's a bit of a different situation here in Ireland. The well being interventions I think are much more, much more related to this warmth that they have as a culture. They're incredibly friendly humans. They're very open to socializing and having conversations. They're very open to welcoming people in from diverse backgrounds. And in general, they very much have this art based. Not that Italy doesn't, because Italy has a very art based kind of well being culture. But I feel like in Ireland there's so much around their green pastures and their, their access to nature and having the ability to have access to water. Many of them are doing a lot of swimming in the mornings and having access to these, these water based interventions. So in general, I think that what I'll sum it up and say is that well being interventions are really culturally contextual and they're very individualized. So what works for Dr. Random isn't maybe going to work for me. And how do we come together and really have these conversations about what does optimal well being look like for you? And what does optimal well being look like for me? And then how do we kind of make these commonalities or create spaces where people can thrive individually through their cross cultural context?
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Love that. And it's interesting that you're talking about with Ireland, the whole thing with the swimming and the water. It's funny because I'm, I'm Irish, I'm an o', Brien, you know, and it's funny because I actually love swimming in the morning. That was one of my favorite Things. I don't know if that's like a gene thing with being Irish, but that's interesting. So sorry I had to throw that.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: In there, but it's like Finland. So I have a very good colleague and I just got back from Finland and in the Finnish culture, one of the well being practices that I think is more so beautiful is this idea of sauna and, you know, going to saunas and having collective saunas and having group saunas and public, public saunas. And then in the saunas in Helsinki, you know, you're taking the saunas and then you're jumping into the water. You know, there's something very healing about this process there.
And so again, I think that these cultural traditions of well being are existent in the cultural context. And I think one of my loves of being a well being researcher that's kind of on this quest globally to understand well being more broadly is being able to immerse yourself in the well being aspects of these different cultures and being able to ask yourself like, really like, what is, is it about this, this tradition or this artifact or this metaphor or this experience that's really moving you?
And then kind of having these respectful engagements around, thinking about this cross cultural phenomenon of well being interventions and how we can just kind of almost preserve them a bit. You know, in Italy I talk about this idea of preserving the relational energy.
I know a lot of people who go to Italy and there they talk about this idea of how inefficient it is, how inefficient effective it is. There's a lot of things in Italy that are incredibly effective, like their train systems and things. However, if you're coming to Italy with a western US obsessed over everything must be efficient mindset, it becomes very difficult, I think at times for people to just embrace this inefficiency. But what happens when you do embrace this inefficiency? Will there be more relational energy exchange? Is there more openness to just experiencing the culture and being okay with what comes versus this, you know, this efficiency and effective overemphasis?
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Yes.
And I also, I had a thought. So when I lived in Florence for two months and I thought about how, you know, I'd go in every morning, un cappuccino per favolore, you know, and order my, you know, cappuccino every morning. It was just this kind of slowing down, you know, and you would stand there and talk with, you know, everybody who works, they got to know you and it was very personable. Where I feel like sometimes here in the US you can go in a Starbucks maybe five times and the workers don't remember you. Really? Maybe they will, but sometimes no but you know, it's just that whole well being. Like you talk about the mindset of slowing down and just enjoying the moment.
And I will say I did love the system of transportation while being in Italy. I found that very, you know, you, I loved how you could take a boat in Portofino from one. You know, it was slowed down, it wasn't like super fast. But just how you got around is just so relaxing and you take it in and everything. But five years from now, looking at your research on energizing leadership, collective well being and AI coaching together, it's if your work succeeds in changing how organizations actually operate, what would be concretely different about someone's everyday work experience in say 2030?
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a great question. I think from my perspective it really goes back to one of my mentors, David Day, who really is the father of leader development. And this idea that leader development is a developmental process and leadership development is a developmental process that happens in the micro moments of everyday experiences. So again, this idea of these developmental processes, number one, the first person has to actually self decide that they're going to develop. Development exists within the individual, right? And so for me, when I think about my journey as a leader, for so long I was waiting for hr, I was waiting for somebody to develop me, I was waiting for access to this class or this. Then you know, oh wait, you have to get on the list and try to get on to the, you know, once we have the opening, then you can go to the leadership training or once you have seniority then you can go. One day a light went off for me and it was this light that we all can self develop. We all can decide to do it on our own within our organizations and outside of our organizations. And so I think the future in 2030 is really this idea that more people have self selected and understand that this developmental process is within them. And we have more micro moment and interventions that exist within organizations so that somebody can be flexing or growing a leadership muscle even within the organization.
The off sites are saved for a very particular reason. Maybe you're trying to get out to kind of solve some problems or maybe kind of just get out of the office to be able to just change the energy around the team dynamic. But really instead of leader development being outside of the organization and kind of in these three or four day classes, it's really embedded and I think artificial intelligence is going to give us the opportunity not only to do that in the moment, but also to do it where it's at scale and it's customizable. So something that you're working on from a leader development perspective might be something I've already mastered or I have an innate talent to do. So again, this idea of really individualizing leader development for me would be the future. And everybody would have access to every single employee would have access, every single middle manager would have access, and every single person who needs it most would have access. And so for me, my dream is, you know, imagine offenders in the prison system and correctional officers having access to leader development. What does this look like? You know, what does it look like when everybody has access to coaching, which is one of the most effective interventions we see in leader development? And what is it, what does it look like when we have more evidence based research that is actually being practically used by people within organizations? So to sum it up, I would say the future looks like where academics and practitioners are working side by side. If you're an academic, you have a practitioner that's right there with you to kind of keep this connection. And if you're a practitioner, you have an academic who's there to help you with valid and reliable skills, help you with research questions, help you with statistical analysis. Or maybe it's a team, or maybe we're just working together because we want to work together.
So the future for me I really see as much more connected, much more working across these siloed kind of things because I think if we do this, we can help each other, really change the world with people having more access to what they need and why they need it.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: I have a question with the AI that you've been talking about.
So what are your thoughts on the kind of the controversy? Just curious. And you know, I'm an artist myself and I know you know other artists too.
What do you. How do you see the role?
Just curious. And I know that you're not, you know, by far an expert on this. I'm kind of asking you this out of the blue, but what are your thoughts on AI with art? Do you have any thoughts on that? Because it's been such a controversy lately and a lot of people are very much against it. Some people are more open to it.
Recently, I know that there have been some AI classes added to the art universities and caused kind of an uproar.
I was just curious how you think that there's a way, do you see there's a way to still Protect artists but yet at the same time, you know, be innovative and use this technology. Because there's an artist, a photographer out there, his name is Planton and he's a famous photographer and oops, sorry, I actually meant Tristan Harris did this analogy on an interview with the photographer Planton.
So he has a really good analogy that he used on how AI is for artists. He said it's like if you and yes, plant on. I'm quoting something you said. So I'm using your analogy.
He said I love it though. He said it's like you take your children and you walk them hand in hand to a school bus and you, they get on the school bus and you're trusting that that school bus driver is going to get them safely to school.
Well, as they're going along, the driver lets go of the wheel, just lets go.
And that's what he is saying is what it feels like for as artists that we're the kids on the school bus and the leaders out there and the innovators of this technology have just let go of the wheel. There's no, there's nothing out there to protect us, us or to lead us on how to handle this or navigate it. And it sounds like there's more approaches going on with what you're talking about in your research. It seems to me like it's more streamlined and controlled and you have a handle on it.
So what do we do with AI in areas where it doesn't feel like there's a handle on it Right now I'm just curious your thoughts if you have any.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't feel like I have a handle on it but I think from my perspective I really have this vision where particularly in coaching and leader development, leadership more broadly, that AI is going to sit side by side. So this idea where AI is particularly in coaching, this idea where the AI coach, not just any coach, but a really, really rigorous, ethically designed boundaries set coaching, psychology and intervention based, you know, designed LLM that's been randomly controlled, tested through an RCT rigorous design which is what we're doing at Sherlock right now.
And really this idea of understanding and it's constantly being given new information about interventions and you're constantly seeing it as this evolving research project. I think those types of systems are going to work side by side with coaches, for example, to be able to kind of of flag a coach and tell them when they would want to come into a coaching session. When would it be appropriate, when is it more effective for a AI based coach to coach Somebody versus a human coach. And for some of these questions, we don't really know the answers, but really some of the thoughts we have are, you know, is it. Is it possible for goal orientation where an AI coach is, you know, better working with a client at these lower levels, you know, working with the ICF credentials, we talk about ACC or PCC markers, and then we say maybe more of the transformational kind of MCC or master level coaches. Is it necessary to have that all the time? And when is it necessary? So the reason why I share about this is because it relates to art in that one of the things for me, particularly studying creativity and leadership is this idea that most people that I know don't consider themselves to be creative, you know, and so it's this idea. And I remember myself when I first took my first creativity course with Dr. Ralph at Pepperdine. He basically changed my mindset in this idea that I am creative and I actually have tons of creativity. Although I'm not technically an artist, I wouldn't consider myself to be an artist. I'm not a painter and all this. And one of the things I think with AI is we have an opportunity for people who don't necessarily connect with art or consider themselves an artist to start creating these small steps towards it. So, for example, I've been seeing these photos where a child draws this beautiful little stick figure, and then the AI makes it super beautiful and the child feels this sense of that they're an artist.
Where can we have some of those symmetries versus this idea of AI replaces artists? Where is it that AI can enhance the connection with art?
Where is it that AI can help somebody who doesn't feel that they're an artist become an artist? This is what I'm most interested in, in the future of AI.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: Yes. I recently just went to a digital art show which was very interesting. I will say that I was, like, pretty blown away by it. I was like, wow.
But it's funny. I also, as an artist and a painter myself at the same time, I can't explain explaining. I kind of had this pit in my stomach too. You know, it's such a weird kind of strange transition in time right now of figuring all this out. But I feel like what's great is, you know, we have people out there like you and other, you know, people conducting research that we're. We're figuring out this frontier, you know, and I feel like it is moving in a lot of steps towards more positive than negative. You know, if we focus on the negative, all the Time, that's what we're going to see. But I think there's, you know, there's a lot of positive steps that are happening too on this digital frontier.
And do you have any more thoughts of insight you'd like to share on your research or. I know I kind of wanted to talk about and share about, you know, what you're doing and like for me example, I look at what you're doing doing is so awe inspiring. And I myself would love to be in your shoes and doing more, you know, grant funded research. Could we talk a little bit about that?
[00:33:44] Speaker B: Yeah, let me share the story. So basically what happened was that I was in this senior role, you know, struggling with my own well being, studying at the University of Pennsylvania with Dr. Seligman and the group at Penn in the science of well being and really feeling this real draw to what is it, what is cross cultural well being, particularly through the roots of my father, you know, being from the south of Italy and also feeling this need to kind of go to Italy to rejuvenate and have strong vitality, have those relational connections over cappuccinos and just be able to slow down more, you know, be reflective, slow the pace down, really understand like what's my purpose and meaning in life, like what do I want to be when I grow up, you know, and this idea of this constant achievement motive in the US where it's we must achieve and we must be goal oriented and we must get to this and that I felt that pull myself from a well being perspective. And although the achievement side of well being is so important, you know, how do you balance this with all the other aspects of well being which are relational aspects, which are emotional aspects, which are spiritual aspects, which are environmental aspects, which are, you know, all these, all these dynamics of that exists from a well being perspective. And so in general I left the US to come to Italy. And I think for me it's really this idea that if you dream something into the future, it's pretty possible that you can reach it, particularly if you want it, and you set your goal orientation to that. And so I was really, really set on this idea of what does. One question was what does well being look like in cross cultural context, particularly in Italy? You know, what does employee well being look like in Italy? And being from the U.S. and you know, studying well being in the U.S. i really didn't have a clear picture of what this was. And so I was able to basically apply and have favorable, a favorable decision to study well being funded by the European Union at the University of Bologna, where I'm housed in my PhD.
And I think that from my perspective, it's really just, you know, kind of going for it and seeing what it is that you're really interested in studying and putting all your feelers out there. And then, you know, potentially if you're struggling, you can hire a coach. Coaches are really good with this. You could have an AI coach that could help you goal orientate about these future, you know, things that you really want to achieve. Because at the end, I think it really just comes down to action, you know, this idea of taking action towards the things that you really want and letting go of some of the things in which you don't want.
And so for me, when I left the US and I came to Italy, I was in complete total leader burnout.
I received favorable results for going into this PhD program at the University of Bologna to study well being. But I was facing this real existential crisis with the idea that how can I study well being and not have high levels of well being myself?
And so through that exercise, it took me about a year to the reset to start understanding what, you know, well being means to me. I had had a coach and I started looking at, you know, my physical health. I stopped drinking even though I was in Italy. You know, I was on this beautiful organic Lambrusco farm and I was enjoying my La Brusco and then realizing, you know, potentially.
Yeah, potentially that, you know, you know, you know, how, you know, how well was it, you know, having, you know, wine intake? Because for me, when my well being, suffering, it's, it's, you know, it's dipping into alcohol, you know, consumption, it's dipping into food consumption, it's dipping into these things where I'm trying to fill a hole inside, you know. And so from my perspective, having this time to reset in Italy was incredibly changed my life and it really did change my perspective about what's possible.
And so from my perspective, if you're interested in studying and have a big dream, no matter if it's, you know, doing cross cultural research or if it's moving to another country, my advice to people is do it and do it now. You know, don't wait, don't wait for, you know, this to happen or this to happen or this to be perfect or for this to happen at times, if this is something that's really important to you from a life purpose perspective, you know, no time like the present, you know, time to just go and put all your energy into this, into this Space.
So that's my story. And in general, I think, you know, when I think about my areas of research, it's really around, you know, well being, particularly for leaders, because I think that in organizations, leaders are scrutinized a lot. We put our leaders through a lot, you know, we put our leaders through a lot of judgment. We put our leaders through a lot of criticism.
I've been thinking about more recently this idea that leaders are getting feedback, you know, feedback Fridays. And it's, you know, it's difficult to be a leader, you know, and it's difficult for leaders, I think particularly to be able to maintain their own well being. So what does it look like in a world where leaders can maintain their own well being and a leader that has low levels of well being, can they even inspire an organization high well being for their employees? I don't know the answer to these questions, but these are some of the questions I'm particularly interested in. And this idea that. And then what is leadership well being and leader well being look like in Italy versus Ireland versus the US.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: And, you know, I'm obviously a dog person and I actually put a lot of well being into just having the presence of, you know, my little dog here. But. And I know Italy way more open to dogs, I feel like, than any other country, which is interesting. You know, I just think that's a good point. But everything you're saying is just such pearls of wisdom. It has been just amazing hearing all your knowledge and wisdom and everything you're doing with this research. It's just mind blowing. It's so amazing. And I know that you're an inspiration to a lot of people, probably more than, you know.
And I am so excited to stay in touch with you and hopefully in person, you know, we can connect at some point in the future, soon here and maybe even collaborate on some research together. Who knows, in the future we'll see. But I'm so thankful that you came on the podcast today for Dr. Randa, for me, Dr. Sarah, and I just wish you the best, Christina, and I hope that, you know, you just have an amazing rest of your day. And thank you for coming on the podcast.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you so much, Sarah. I really appreciate it. And also, you know, from my perspective, let me know how I can support you. You know, I think it's. We need more of us supporting one another, you know, and this idea that, you know, your dreams and what they are, I can help you achieve those dreams just by being there to support, you know, and what does it look like when we're actually supporting one another to achieve these dreams. Dreams. And so from my perspective, anything I can do, I'm here.
And let's plan on you coming to Italy and enjoying a cappuccino together and enjoying the art. And I'd love to be able to have the experience to go through Firenze and look at how beautiful that city is with just the glorious art. And the idea of, you know, well, being through art for me is incredibly inspiring. And also it's not my area of research, but there's lots of research and this idea of what impact does art have on well, being. And there's a lot there. You know, there's a lot there with many artists talking about flow states and being able to get into flow and being able to experience these hedonic and eudaimonic processes that you can't experience when you're in other realms. So I have so much just appreciation and just, just awe and inspirational feelings towards artists and their ability to just create these most beautiful things in life. And so Italy has so much of that, you know, and this idea, whether it's food or it's wine or it's art, you know, Italy just has this particular, particular vitality that exists that I think draws many of us there to not only heal, but, but to experience and just enjoy life.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
And yes. Charleston here also has an amazing art hub art scene. We have over 20 galleries downtown in a little hub area, which is nice. They do a little art walk once a month, so. But yeah, thank you so much. Graze.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I know I don't want to sell. I don't want to get off the call, but then I realize you probably have a set time, so.
But thank you. It was so nice to see you. I'm so happy you're doing well and you made it through the Pepperdine program. Like, that was amazing.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: I still remember being in that program and realizing it wasn't a good fit for me. And then one of the doctors saying, oh, yeah, look left and right because half of you, most of you, won't be there next to each other.
But then to see all of you graduating and I'm right behind, even though I did a bit of a deviation, is nice to see. And, you know, it's nice to see you be Dr. Sarah after the long, the long journey, the long haul.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: I know. I look back and I'm like, would I do it again? Probably, yes. But, you know, yes, for sure, 100 times over, so. And here's some realistic stuff. Ava's in a playful mood now, so probably time to let her walk, but yeah. Well, thank you.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Sam.
