The Traveling Archivist - Mary Snyder, MLIS & Ph.D. Candidate - The Archives Know What History Forgot - But Will We Preserve It in Time?

[00:00:02] Speaker A: All right. Hello and welcome to the Dr. Random podcast. I'm so excited because today I have Mary Snyder, traveling archivist, and she has her master's in library Information science and is a PhD candidate and very exciting. And American Studies and with. She basically has hands on experience with architecture, material culture, sites with having to do with enslavement that shaped her research focus on expanding interpretation of race, gender and power. Historic. Correct. Yeah. And basically I'm gonna, you know, kind of. I'll let you, Mary, kind of introduce yourself more in detail where you are a PhD candidate. Kind of tell us about that. Let's introduce yourself and tell us what led you to want to pursue it. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thanks so much for having me on here. I'm so excited about the conversation we're about to have because there's such overlap and like you said, pretty much anything that's historic, old, whatever is something that I study, whether it's buildings, material culture, food ways, whatever. So currently I'm a fourth year, so I'm a PhD candidate at Boston University in. In American Studies, which for those who know me as a traveling archivist, I think that's kind of confusing because they're like, well, why aren't you doing archival science and information science? And that comes down to. No, because of what you mentioned, which is this idea of the intersection of race, gender, class, and thinking about power within the historic record. And one way to kind of tease apart the power dynamics and to tell a more inclusive story is to do an interdisciplinary study, which is what American Studies is. So American Studies, fairly recent field, started in the 1980s, officially. And basically what it means is I'm a scholar of multiple fields, so I use multiple forms of evidence to study American culture. For me, that's looking at 19th century history, historic sites and landscapes pertaining to freedom struggles. [00:02:22] Speaker A: Amazing. Yes. [00:02:25] Speaker B: And so that was kind of like, that's where I'm at now. But as you've mentioned, I've been working in the museum field with archives and historic sites for over a decade now. Wow. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so amazing. And, you know, it's funny so how her. How Mary and I crossed paths. And as some of you may or may not know, my doctoral journey includes digital artifacts. Basically my focus was oil paintings of the subject of Jesus, some mosaics, different things. But I have a passion for, you know, historic preservation and cultural heritage and all of that and more. On the iconographic side, the icons within the Byzantine era, different things like that, all different eras. If you look at my study But I think that what kind of is the common denominator with both of us is. I don't know, what would you, how would you describe it? Because we're both like. Would you say it's more of just the passion for preservation and of cultural heritage, would you think? [00:03:29] Speaker B: I think what I. I've actually been thinking about your, your dissertation quite a bit because it. Oh, I mean, there's, there's like, there's like, there's obviously our passion for preservation. There's our passion for thinking about iconic, thinking about like Jesus and different iconic leaders and thinking about the preservation of that in today's space, which is mostly digital and something that I think, I think it's my Roman Empire, honestly, is thinking about digital preservation and access to key cultural like heritage or religious heritage. Like, how do we maintain that in today where we're mostly interacting with culture, society, whatever. I mean, the reality is a lot of us are interacting in it online right now. Thinking about like you pulled one of your examples is about Ukraine, like a Ukrainian church and materials being demolished, erased because of war with Russia. I'm like, oh my gosh, like this stuff is happening, like erasure is happening every day. And so think about the digital space, which is a difficult space for, can be a difficult space for long term preservation, but it's nonetheless a alternative space for saving heritage when it's being wiped out physically. So anyways, I'm like, I'm like still thinking like, oh my gosh, what's happening in the Ukraine right now. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I love it that my study can have that effect on you. That's kind of like that you're thinking about it. I mean, that's the point of it, right? Like we want to do something in the study to make people think, oh, wait a second, you know, and my dreams and goals or you know, to be able to, to continue that. I mean, can you imagine the vast amount of time it could take me if I was to go and travel and just digitize everything and these, you know, think about all the little crevices and corners of the world on tops of mountains where churches are that maybe have never been digitized or you know, in for preservation purposes, like churches with iconographic works and artifacts and relics and different things like that. And you know, I mean, if I even one of the paintings I included in my study from Paris in a church didn't have like hardly any information on it. And so you think if I found one like that in Paris, can you just imagine globally? [00:06:15] Speaker B: I mean, it's crazy, right? And we think, I think what's so revealing about your study too is you've chosen the most, probably like the most famous historic figure. Right. You've chosen Jesus and you're still revealing, like, invisible, like, things that have been erased, things that have been rendered invisible. Like there's still so much more to study. And I think that, I mean, I think that's, that's part of why we do what we do is to make people aware of the fact that there's still so much to document, there's still so much to learn. Like, history is, is it's not done, it's not a finished product. And even things that are really well document that seem to be really well documented. Actually, there's still, there's still, you know, gaps. [00:07:05] Speaker A: Exactly. And that, that's probably the biggest thing I don't know if you're finding in the work, in doctoral work is the, the gaps. Finding the gaps. [00:07:16] Speaker B: The gaps are important for, you know, for this PhD. If I don't find a gab, I don't get a dissertation done. [00:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And, yeah, and I, and I was so excited because when I found out that I got approved for my study because it's so different, you know, it's non human subjects research and exploratory qualitative study and on like, you know, just on digital, it was just like, I was so excited and I loved it and I just dove into it, you know, and. Yeah, but that's awesome. [00:07:52] Speaker B: That's how you want, that's, that's how I want to hear everyone talk about their dissertation process is I dove into it. I loved it because it can also be a very grueling process. I mean, you talked about how you had like such a large coal of material and you had to narrow it down. I think that's, that's the hardest part of this whole thing. Like, you can spend years in the material. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And just the vast amount of symbolism and semiotics to analyze that's out there to even apply to like, go through the image. And sometimes, you know, I'd have to double check. Wait, did I miss that grape leaf or did I miss that? You know what I mean? [00:08:36] Speaker B: Like, different kinds of symbolism. You can't miss them. [00:08:41] Speaker A: And like, you know, but, but yeah, it was, it was interesting and fun and I don't know, I really enjoyed it. And I had a thought and I lost it, but it'll come back to me. [00:08:51] Speaker B: But let's talk about though, is like, you can take just, you can take One object, it feels like. And you do a semiotic study. You could. I mean, that right there can be, like, 20 pages. I mean, untangling all of the different, like, webs of meaning and nuance. Crazy. Well, it's amazing your brain works that way. [00:09:13] Speaker A: That's. [00:09:13] Speaker B: That's. That's awesome. [00:09:17] Speaker A: And what's really even interesting, too, if you can imagine, I'm kind of old school. And I think I saw you put some pictures where you still do the handwritten notes. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:09:26] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Okay. So I do a lot of handwriting throughout the process. I did a lot of handwritten notes. And I don't know, when I think about, like, all the notes I was going through as I was reading things, and then I don't know, just taking in all the information, compiling it. [00:09:43] Speaker B: But, yeah, so I think that we gotta scan those. You're like, we gotta digitally preserve them. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Okay, Sorry. I'm like, okay, this is great. This is fun. So let's talk about you, though, a little bit here. Let's go into the Whitney Plantation store archives. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Oh, yes, yes. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Which is that you. You have a part in that, or you can you kind of tell us about that or what it's about or what? [00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to. I would love to. Because I have been an admirer of Whitney Plantation for a long time, which. That's a weird sentence. It seems like a weird sentence to say until you understand what Whitney Plantation is. It is the only historic plantation dedicated to exclusively telling the story of enslavement and focusing on the enslaved individuals. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:46] Speaker B: So when you go to the site, you might spend some time in the big house, but the stories you learn are about the hundreds of individuals who were enslaved there, worked the sugar cane plantations. And so it's really well done. And they've been a model for not just the interpretation and, like, historic research of enslavement, but also working with descendant communities. So they're incorporated in every facet of the site, which is great. And so I had reached out to them back in 2024 and just let. No, like, it was honestly a cold email. I emailed their amazing executive director, Dr. Ashley Rogers, and I said, hey, I'm an archivist. I have been admiring what you guys do. You've been leaders in this interpretation and this descendant work, and I would love to help out in any way. At the time, they were trying to build an archive of the plantation store records. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:52] Speaker B: And though it prompted. This was a hurricane, which is kind of how it goes in Louisiana. So Whitney Plantation is About an hour outside of New Orleans. [00:12:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:12:02] Speaker B: So they were like, hey, listen, so glad you sent this email because we have been for the last two years trying to clean these records, save these records, and then we need someone who can put them into like a cataloged classified archive, the whole shebang. And I was like, I got. So I spent the summer of 2024 at the site and it was just amazing. It's. You think you, you see Whitney Plantation online and it seems like this really professional, formalized institution. And it is, but it also, like, still has that mom and pop heart, you know, So I was welcome. Like, it feels very family, like. Right. And I think it's, it's, it's grounded in the community and then the area. So it was just such an honor to be a part of that team. And it was basically me every day hiding in the back of the offices, you know, in a climate controlled room, just going through, I think it was 75 linear feet of records. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Wow. [00:13:04] Speaker B: And it was mostly. I'm a 19th century gal, that's where I like to be. But I was hanging out in the 20th century. Really. It was really edifying because the. It connected. It connected the legacy of enslavement of this plantation system to, through Jim Crow, into the petrochemical industrialization. So as I'm going through these records, I'm seeing it transform the space transform from, you know, tenant farmers to laborers are moving out and about to land and buy companies. So I'm going through all of that, but. And I could go on, as you can tell, but essentially, yeah. So I spent the summer building the physical archives, classifying that, getting oil and grease off of it because they had been stored in the store building, which had been damaged by the hurricane. And now fast forward, we've since gone through two batches of digitization. So I'll temporarily go down there, scan things or work with someone who's already down there. They'll scan a batch of stuff and then I'll process it at. Today they are. They've finished restoring the plantation store building and now they want to interpret it. So they're collaborating with me to kind of go through those primary sources to inform their interpretation. So that's where we are two years later, which is very exciting. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that's. It's amazing. And it sounds like. And was this an internship type thing or a paid thing? Just curious, if you don't mind. [00:14:54] Speaker B: This was. Yeah, this was like a paid consultancy thing. Okay. It was like a summer internship consultancy thing that now is like I'm just their archive consultant. You know, it's one of those things [00:15:13] Speaker A: where it's like, I hope that we're like. Kind of like, people are probably gonna watch this and be like, those two are nerding out together, but, like, having fun, and it's gonna draw everybody in. [00:15:23] Speaker B: I hope so. That's the energy, guys. It's fun. It's fun over here. I mean, it was. It was paid. It was 100 paid, grant funded. And then the grant landscape, as you might know, got a little weird for a while. But we're back, you know, and so, yeah, it just. It was. It was a really great project to be a part of it, continue to be a part of. And I'm so glad I had three months to just spend in the community with. With the individuals. You learned so much from them. [00:15:55] Speaker A: That's amazing. I'm hoping to, you know, do something more of that on the realm of the church and the relics and all of that, but we'll see. [00:16:04] Speaker B: That would be awesome. [00:16:05] Speaker A: And then. Yeah. And so basically, now, recovering names and legacies. The First Church Roxbury project. Am I referring to that correctly? Where it was building on earlier work tracing enslaved individual individuals and enslaved, you know, people of color linked to the church through the early Republic. I guess so, yeah. Do you want to kind of talk about the institutional history work on the. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So. So First Church in Roxbury is a. Was formed in 1631 by John Elliot. It's kind of one of those Puritan churches that gets planted in the Massachusetts Bay area today. It's not a. It doesn't function as a traditional church. [00:17:00] Speaker A: It is. [00:17:03] Speaker B: It's a meeting space still. And it's operated by UU Urban Ministry. So it's a universalist urban ministry. And they're dedicated to not only doing, like, youth education and community outreach, but they're also devoted to using history as a form of, like, restorative justice, healing, community engagement, all of that. So they started back in. They started way, way, way, way back in, like, 2017, which to me feels like yesterday, but I understand that's 10 years ago. And they started restoring the meeting house because it needed major work. So they started doing the. The physical restoration of this church, which was built in 1808. It was the fifth church building on this hilltop. It is. It is truly like your Puritan, like, layout. It is the church on the hilltop. It was used during the Revolutionary War, so it's super cool. It's a layered landscape going back to the Wapanoags using it. And then of course, John Elliott creates his praying town, builds a church there. So it's got all these layers, right? Fast forward today they. They started the restoration work and then they're like, well, we need to do the historical research to coincide with this. Like if we're going to restore this space, we need to understand this space and understand it in a way that is very honest. Very honest. And they asked the hard questions. So UU Urban Ministry partnered with Roxbury Historical Society and brought on their first researcher, who is a Harvard PhD. I bet he's amazing. And he wrote the initial kind of years of the church founding through the lens of who looking at the relations with the indigenous population there, also looking at the way that enslavement and people of color are interacting with the church. And he was able to identify over 70 names of individuals enslaved by the congregants there or painting in some way with the church. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:25] Speaker B: And so that went up to the revolution. And then I was brought on to kind of extend that forward so 1775 into I my periodization is 1820, because that's when they do. They put in an organ and a heating system. And I was like, okay, we're going to use the building's life to kind of demarcate how long this historical research. So 20. Things get weird in the US too, but those. So I did 1775 to those. Those beginning decades in the early, early Republic. And through that I was able to find 35 households and at this point Massachusetts. This was actually a really good exercise for me because I had been mostly ingrained in Southern history and not Northern history and especially not Boston history, which yeah, the all tend to think of public of pub of Boston as like this, this hotbed for abolitionism and thinking of it as anti slavery when in reality it's more nuanced, it's much more ambiguous. And so doing that research teased apart what a lot of other scholars are starting to tease apart, which is how long enslavement or these very convoluted indentures existed in, in Boston. And so you get very complicated picture of some people are. Are free because technically the courts have said that we're not supposed to have slavery anymore in Boston. But then people are skirting around it by saying, well, you're going to be bonded until you're 21, but oh, maybe a few more years. So that research was kind of teasing apart how the church congregants are engaging with what's happening with race relations at the time. And also there a growing black and indigenous group of congregants at First Church. And there was. And we were able to kind of tell this story of black families finding spaces within. Roxbury will also grapple with this very complicated landscape, both both within the church and outside of the church. And so as I was doing that research and report, the archivist in me was like, well, we gotta. Like, I gotta make sure that my research, like, my interpretation isn't the only thing here. I need to make sure that the primary sources, the records, the names that I'm pulling can also be given to the community. Yeah. So we worked about every month. I had a meeting with the. With the ministry and with the Historical Society, which are all community members, and talked through very honestly with them the progress. At the end of that report, I was able to give to them the database. I had built my research off of all of the links to the repositories, all of the names, so that even community members can go on the website and they can search different names and it'll link out to all the repositories. I think one thing going through all of this is making sure that descendants have access, but also just that the community still have ownership over their history. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. [00:23:01] Speaker B: So that was. That was that project, and it continues on today. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's basically. And you're helping document the founding of Boston University's African American Studies program, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Thrown into the 20th century, but yeah. So this wonderful, wonderful professor started, you know, trying to figure out the history of Black studies at bu Boston University is known as, like, the alma mater of Martin Luther King Jr. But we don't really have, like, a full history of the program. [00:23:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:39] Speaker B: So she started investigating that, and knowing that I have this archival background, she's like, mary, can you come on and go through the attic of our program, of our program's house? And, like, I think there might be important records up there, but they haven't been accessioned as part of the university collection. So over the last two years, last two summers, I worked on that, and this summer, it was so great. This summer I was able to work with students directly and train them on how to go through these. They were probably like, mary, is this really how I'm gonna spend my summer? In a hot, sweaty attic going through weird boxes? Like. And I was like, this is what we're gonna do, and it's gonna be fun. Or at least I'm gonna try and make it fun. And so we spent the summer, you know, they would come on site and I would give them these huge cardboard boxes of what looked like really boring administrative paper, which they were. But to me, I'm like, that's really juicy tea on what's happening? [00:24:46] Speaker A: This is my jam. [00:24:48] Speaker B: I was like, this is it, I love it. And they were like, what is this handwriting? I can't read it. And I'd be like, isn't that so cool? And they're like, no, this is boring. But towards the end of the project, they got so into it and they were able to build out. It's so cool. They were able to build out this full spreadsheet again. I know that sounds boring, but basically they were creating a database of, you know, they would assign the title of each record, they would create descriptions, they would create subjects. And they started to get into finding what's happening in the timeline, like, oh, what's going on here, here? And they got into it. And I think that is, it's important, I think that youth understand how information, how like building and structuring information works. So that was, that was a really cool project to be a part of. [00:25:42] Speaker A: That is, that's amazing. And I love the fact that you're getting, you know, teaching other students and leading. I think that's amazing. And getting other people kind of open their eyes to the world of, you know, preservation and archiving and all of that. It's amazing. And as far as, like, would you say the process, care and ethics behind what you do. So what's the actual labor behind, would you say building an archive from inherited, disordered or damaged materials, creating taxonomies, metadata, access to access the plans, assess plans. I don't know, just kind of wondering, like, how would you describe that? Yes, yes. [00:26:29] Speaker B: This is a complicated. I have a lot of feelings, feelings about this. Like, I have very mixed feelings about this. But I will say my approach tends to be like, in terms of creating taxonomy. And by taxonomy we mean like a hierarchy of class, like a hierarchy or classification order. Right. So for me, um, I've been in a lot of diff. I've worked in a lot of different types of settings. So I've worked for corporate archives, I've worked for historic societies, universities, so forth. And they all kind of have different idiosyncrasies, different expectations, different missions. [00:27:12] Speaker A: Uh huh. [00:27:13] Speaker B: But at the heart of all of it, my approach is always collaborative. [00:27:18] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Especially when dealing with community archives and archives pertaining to enslavement, freedom struggles, marginalization, is making sure that the order that I'm putting on the records is an. Is an order or is a classification that people agree on that. That's what. That's what's going to make sense. That's what's going to serve the people who are represented in the records and are using the records. But you also have to have an eye. This is where it gets difficult, because when you create an order and when you create, like a tagging or metadata system, it's not just to serve the immediate, like to serve the local, but you got to make sure that it's discoverable, which means you do have to adhere to a standard. And that standard tends to be here in the US The Library of Congress subject headings, which are old. They're old. They're. They're hard to change. Yeah, there's problematic terms there. They. They require approval through Congress, all of this. But it's the lexicon we use to make collections visible. And so a lot of the. The difficulty that archivists have, especially now, is having this community language and sensitivity, while also making the collection discoverable through this standard that's been built through a much different lens. I don't know if that makes. That makes any sense. So that's kind of the difficulty. But for me to have an ethical approach, it's trying to remove my bias, but it's there. And acknowledging the bias and making sure that I am then engaging in dialogue and appealing to the best standards that we have. So it's kind of. [00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I. Yes, exactly. You probably saw in my dissertation, I had to do the. Oh, my gosh, I'm drawing a blank on the name of the actual sentence, but you know what I'm talking about. I think the bias or whatever. But. Yeah, so we have to be, you know, transparent with that, with our study. But it doesn't mean it affects anything, really. It's just a matter. That's actually the matter of acknowledging it, you know, But. And I actually studied in the Library of Congress at one point with my dissertation. I have my Library of Congress, like, library card. And what that. That was like. [00:29:56] Speaker B: You gotta claim it. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Yeah, but that was a lot of. That was so cool. I loved it. Like, I spent. I was in there for probably about an hour or two, and I was working on some portions of my dissertation just in there in the library. That's amazing. [00:30:13] Speaker B: That's peak academic dream right there. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And so basically, I don't know. I guess I'm kind of wondering, like, this is kind of nerdy stuff for people listening, but, like, What's. I don't know. [00:30:34] Speaker B: I went really deep in the nerdy stuff just then. [00:30:39] Speaker A: And what would you say? I don't know. Would you say you're more drawn to, like, the archive? Like, stuff with, like, buildings or more paper trails? Like, how would you describe what you enjoy most as an archivist? What would you say is your favorite part about being in our podcast? Like, what gets you, like, yay. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Okay, so this is. This is a big. This is a big secret that I'm gonna reveal right now. I am, actually, because I'm an archivist, and so I supposed to the paper, but honestly, I am a big building lover. I love historic buildings so much. I love spending time in them, reading them. Just they have their stories in themselves, and I just. You can't. Like, an archive is great, don't get me wrong. And rich, and it's a lot easier to interpret and read. Right. It's the text. Yeah. But the buildings is where, like, the gaps are filled in, you know, and where, like, you can't. You can't escape the fact that people were there. People who aren't in the archival record left their mark in the landscape or in the buildings, you know, it's just so cool. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:00] Speaker B: So, yeah. [00:32:01] Speaker A: Passionate about buildings. Okay. Yeah, I. Yeah, I. Obviously, with my study, I'm more drawn to the more, you know, religious artifacts or, like, the iconographic works and the paintings and the relics and different things like that. Have you heard about the one that supposedly relic has the blood of Jesus in it? Have you heard about that? [00:32:25] Speaker B: No, same. [00:32:26] Speaker A: More. Yeah, so supposedly there is a relic across, you know, with the blood of Jesus in it, and they bring it out on special occasions. And some people feel that when they're in the presence of it, he healing happens, or they get prayers answered or there's like, miracles or some divine things that kind of happen in the presence. [00:32:46] Speaker B: But how often does it come out? [00:32:50] Speaker A: It's. I think it's kind of up to the church that, you know, stores the actual artifact itself. Off the top of my head, I don't want to quote exactly where it is, because I can't remember, but it is quite rare and it's interesting. So. And my. [00:33:09] Speaker B: And now I'm like, what's the preservation process for this? Because, I mean, you'd have to be so. That's amazing. You'd have to be so careful. And I'm guessing there's a lot of organic material. [00:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's just like, you think about the thing, like, what happened With Notre Dame, the fires, things like that. So I actually have. What's interesting is it kind of came full circle for me, but, like, with doing my dissertation study on, you know, the religious arts and the subject of Jesus. Then I was, of course, surrounded by this beautiful stained glass when I was going in the churches. So I actually made that my master's in fine arts study focus. So I have a whole series that I have called my stained glass series called Let There Be Light. And so it's a series of 20 oil paintings of an abstraction of stained glass. And then I also have some digital photography of stained glass, and I actually made a coffee table book of it, which is going to be out soon. So. [00:34:15] Speaker B: Hold up. So you're. You're telling me that you are an artist? You just. You're just like, casually dropping like, hey, so I also have a bunch of art. That's amazing. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, I love painting and doing my photography, and so it's. It's cool how it kind of all intertwines, you know? [00:34:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that's a. That probably makes you an even stronger scholar, though, because you understand the. You understand and appreciate the craft, like, the art as well, at a very deep, intimate level. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And are you finding in your doctoral journey anything that surprises you with kind of the outside lens on what we do as scholars and doctoral students and candidates? Are you finding that. I feel like there's kind of. I have noticed there's more movies coming out with the subject of people that are pursuing doctorates in kind of more our fields. Because I think people always think of, like, you know, a doctor in medicine, or they don't really, I think, understand the process of what it takes to actually be called and labeled a scholar or a scientist, a social scientist, even, or, you know, because it's like, I've been told before, you know, like, we're probably classified as social scientists pretty much, you know, and so, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just curious if you've felt or noticed anything on that level. Yeah, kind of the outside what you're feeling, or people just aren't aware of what we do. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I mean, unless they're like, oh, like Indiana Jones. And I'm like, well, not really, you know, or there's like a romanticized version of what we do, which in some ways downplays the rigor of it. Yeah, def. I mean, I definitely feel that. I feel especially because we're social scientists or human, you know, the humanities there seems to Be. I think people think it's way easier than it. Than it really is, you know, or they're like, well, you just want to be in school for seven years. And maybe that's true, but also, like, there's a. It's also not a fun 7 years either. I mean, it isn't. [00:36:45] Speaker A: It is. [00:36:45] Speaker B: It's really hard. Right. [00:36:48] Speaker A: I think though, you get those comments too, where people are like, oh, you love. Must love to be in school or something. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:36:56] Speaker A: And I'm like, excuse me, I get that. [00:37:00] Speaker B: I get. They'll be like, oh, you study history. And then they'll ask me like, the most obscure, like, historic question. Because I think historians just know everything, the whole history of humanity. And it's like, well, that's. That's actually not what a PhD is. Like, we are becoming specialists. We're becoming experts on very specific topics. And it's also not just memorization of facts. We are doing a lot of critical analysis. And so there seems to be a lack of understanding that I've gotten. Oh, so you have a master's in jeopardy, so. And then being a woman, sometimes you get even more interesting comments. But yeah, I think I got repealed 19th amendment one time, so that was interesting. What was it? Repeal the 19th amendment. So. But yeah, so I mean, I think, you know, that's part of the reason why we do what we do by having, you know, having this podcast discussion, having a social media presence, is to try and not just share our work also. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:18] Speaker B: Educate what it is. And that's part of the reason why I started sharing about the archives specifically, is to make it more accessible, but also to help under people understand what an archivist even does. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I think. And that's why I love that we connected and we actually connected through Instagram. I have my consulting page, which is very tiny. I just recently started it. Then I have my podcast, obviously the Instagram for Dr. Random. But yeah, I saw your page. You must have popped up because of the algorithms with what I do. And I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, so excited when we connected because I was like, this is amazing. Even to a point where it's like, I don't know, maybe we can collaborate someday. We'll be the. We'll be the Dr. Jones's. But the female version. [00:39:14] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:39:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker B: I love it. I love it. No, it's so true. And I think that's kind of what's been nice about being on social media too. Obviously there. There's the bad parts, but like connecting with like minded individuals like you who are passionate about the field and are also passionate about making it like, like educating the public on it. [00:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:39] Speaker B: Which is not, which is not easy and. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And do you find, just curious in your study, do you use more, would you say like more articles or do you use more physical books as your reference? I'm just curious as your sources, are you that far yet? [00:40:02] Speaker B: Oh, in my, for my dissertation. So it is primary sources. So right now I'm going through. You'll love this. I'm going through church meeting minutes right now. So it's a mix. It's a mix of like last month I went to different archives, university archives. So primary sources, so letters, church records. But also it's books and it's scholarly articles. Yeah. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:40:35] Speaker B: And there's also field work because my buildings and landscapes. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. And why just kind of on a bigger picture thing, with your specialty and your expertise, why do so many sites still jump, would you say, from enslavement to the present and skip the nuance mechanisms that kept control in place afterward, like meaning like reconstruction, destruction, [00:41:09] Speaker B: Like the gap from enslavement to present day, like the reconstruction, Jim Crow, all of that. [00:41:13] Speaker A: They kind of like skip. Yeah. Jump. Yeah. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Yeah, they do, don't they? Or they just stay in like specifically Civil War. So part of it is that there's a, There's a lot there right there. Part of it is that a site, a historic site does have to choose its period of significance. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:36] Speaker B: And that's because. And so sometimes they're. They've just. That's how it started to be interpreted. That's now that's a codified mission. And so they just. That the other thing is that when you engage with the public, you have 45 minutes usually for a tour to get across your key elements. And I think, I think, I think there is more, greater push to use that time to do the connections. I think reconstruction is something that people come in not having a grounding in and it's very nuanced. I think the other thing is that I think as we get further in time, we're starting to shift what we focus on. So enslavement, I mean, we're just, it feels like the 90s, really. We started to push interpreting enslavement and then it's more and more. And now we're seeing a wave of people focusing on the reconstruction, Jim Crow, all of that. So it's like as you get further away, there's more clarity, there's More. But there's so much. There's so much to it. Because just getting sites to interpret enslavement has been difficult, you know, and then you also, like. I think board dynamics, museum board dynamics play a part in this, too. And then the materials that you have to interpret. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:25] Speaker B: So if your collection scope has been mostly focused on this period of time as an institution, your objects, then your. Your historic evidence is just going to be able to tell that story and not give full. If that makes any sense. I feel like I'm. I feel like, honestly, there just needs to be more focus on it. So maybe I'm giving cop outs, but it's. There's a lot. There's a lot of. There's a lot of variables to it. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's all right. [00:43:59] Speaker B: I will say if anybody's in South Carolina, Historic Columbia has an amazing museum of reconstruction. Like, absolutely amazing. And it's in Woodrow Wilson's. One of Woodrow Wilson's childhood homes. Apparently he had, like, many of them. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And that's very cool. And I'm actually in Charleston and. Wait, you're in Charleston, huh? [00:44:27] Speaker B: I used to live there. [00:44:28] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Wait, that's crazy. [00:44:33] Speaker A: That's so funny. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Yeah, we used to work for his Charleston Foundation. Nice. Okay. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I've definitely heard about that. And I'm part of DAR Daughters of the American Revolution. Don't know if you know them very well. They do a lot with history stuff, the colonial dames. Yeah. Yeah. I found out I can actually be a Mayflower. One of the Mayflower girls. Yeah. I have a relative on my mother. On my mother's mom's side that came over on the lake. Flower. [00:45:05] Speaker B: What? That's so cool. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Yeah, my family's just like. [00:45:10] Speaker B: We were just like poor, poor Germans that came across at some point, you know, started working in the Midwest. [00:45:16] Speaker A: I don't know if they were. They were anything significant. I don't know how that works, but, I mean. [00:45:22] Speaker B: But that's amazing. [00:45:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And have a lot of French, though, which is interesting. And I always think, you know, it's really interesting, the French side, too, that I have a lot of French and also lots of Scandinavian, like, Viking stuff, too. Just a whole mix from all the different, you know, mom, dad side and everything combined. Wow. [00:45:48] Speaker B: And Charleston has a huge, like, a pretty big French Huguenot presence, too. And were you born and raised in Charleston? [00:45:58] Speaker A: No, no. Northern California. Oh, okay. Yeah. And actually, one thing you might find interesting is I found out with my ancestor. Have you watched that movie, that series called 1823. Have you watched that? [00:46:15] Speaker B: I started it and then I. [00:46:16] Speaker A: Okay, I got. [00:46:19] Speaker B: I've heard it's great. [00:46:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Because there's 1923. Let's see, there's 1883. 1923. So the one. [00:46:25] Speaker B: 1883, that's the one I had started. Sorry. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Okay, so 1883, the girl in that series is very similar to. It sounds like a relative on my dad's mother's side. She actually died on Oregon Trail, and that's kind of what happened with the storyline with 1883. Yeah. [00:46:45] Speaker B: So, okay, so I think the collaboration is this. We need to do your family history. [00:46:56] Speaker A: This is great. [00:46:57] Speaker B: This is crazy. You have Mayflower, dar, Oregon Trail. I mean. [00:47:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:08] Speaker B: These are very American story lines right there. [00:47:13] Speaker A: I know. And everybody always thinks I'm, like, from some other country, exotic. And I'm like, no, I'm probably the most, like, American girl you could find. [00:47:22] Speaker B: Your folks have been here for generations and generations. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah. People like, I've been told, oh, you. You from. They think, oh, you're Russian or you're. Or you're. I could see SC or something. Yeah. I like to think it's the Scandinavian that makes people think that maybe it popped out in me from, like, long time. [00:47:44] Speaker B: Well, the blonde hair, the blue. Like, you have the. You. You have that look. [00:47:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I actually have green eyes, but I know it's hard to tell. Oh, but yeah, so that's what. Yeah. But then, you know, history is fun. And we, both of us obviously love bringing life like the past because it doesn't. It's important for today so that, number one, we don't repeat mistakes of the past, which is so important. That's why history is important. And learning, you know, all about different aspects of history. One of my favorite courses with my law stuff was constitutional law. I love constitutional law. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:32] Speaker A: But, you know, there's quite a bit of history surrounding that, but messy [00:48:40] Speaker B: is that. It's. It's kind of. It's like messy, complicated history, huh? [00:48:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don't know, what would you say? Like, say somebody listening is hearing my study, hearing what you do, and they're kind of like, this sounds so interesting. Maybe I want to get into this. What would you. What would you suggest to the listeners in the audience, like, where they start, what they do? Of course they could reach out to you or reach out to me. I have my consulting website. But if we're archiving, definitely reach out to Mary. But what would you tell the audience? Like, what would you suggest to see if they're really. This is their jam, this is their passion. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Well, I always say get ex. Get experience and like. And I know that's easier said than done, but honestly, just try and get a little bit of experience of doing this work. Whether it's like, if you're in college right now, take a class that's kind of in this work. See if you have the appetite for the analytical prowess that this requires. I mean, you know, especially with semiotics, like, can you, can you just sit with a thing for a while? It could be great leafs. Can you sit with the grape leaves for a while and tease apart all of it? You're doing deep contextualization and you can't ask AI for that. Like, you have to, you have to do that. Right. And then when it comes to archives, it's like, can you handle, can you handle the monotony? Can you handle just being alone for. Which is also scholarship, but like being alone and, and you are, you are tagging objects, you are writing descriptions, but you're not interpreting the description. It's gotta be as objective as possible. Can you just do the tedious work? And if you can, then you're then go move on. Like, move on to the master's, move on to doing the PhD. But if the, the tedious stuff you don't like, probably not for you because as, as you know, the, the fun stuff, like the discoveries, finding that smoking gun or like working with a really cool object, like, that's one day out of sometimes 30 days. Like that's not 90 of the time. It's doing the really tedious work. [00:51:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:17] Speaker B: So. [00:51:18] Speaker A: And that's, that's kind of what I say. [00:51:20] Speaker B: That's how I, I mean, that's how I started, was just working. I started working in a historic theater in high school and I worked in college at different museums. I volunteered for a little bit to start to get my foot in the door at other places. And I'm so glad I did so that I understood what the day to day really looked like. [00:51:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:47] Speaker B: The brunt work that it requires and also the experience what's going to make you an even better scholar. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Yes. And so that's, you know, usually my advice. Yeah. And that's amazing. And I will say, you know, it's like when I sat there, it is very tedious when you dive into your doctoral work. And the difference between Mary and I is she is working on her candidacy for her PhD. I actually earned my educational psychology doctorate. So it's educational psychology and organizational leadership. So mine's an EDD, hers is going to be a PhD. And you know, have you heard the biggest difference between the two is the PhD is built to create and the EDD is built to apply. Those are the two differences. And so that is interesting. You know, and like I recently, I don't know if you caught the part of the podcast I had Doctors Arc Bogosian on and he has his is EDD like me and he's the one who built the first international space station. So you know, he applied, he applied. He definitely applied. And you know, and you know, I've kind of heard those are kind of the difference between the two. And I do know that some universities handle the degrees differently. But where I went it was definitely the full on deep dive into the dissertation. It required that you had a master's. And I have been hearing some programs are almost like getting. Leaning more lenient with that. And I'm like, ugh. It's like, well, I can just hold my head high and I did the work and did it full on dissertation and you know, met the requirements that is normal of a more rigorous, you know, curriculum and course program for doctorates. [00:53:36] Speaker B: So yeah, I mean it sounds like you had a very, it sounds like you had a pretty similar journey. I mean you did the full dissertation and everything. Yeah, I like thinking about that though aside. [00:53:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess that that's like the biggest thing is that one built to apply, one built to create. Like the EDD focuses on solving real world problems and design for education leaders and practitioners and applying research to improve practice, whereas the PhD is more focused on generating new knowledge designed for researchers and scholars and creating theory to advance your field. [00:54:15] Speaker B: That makes, actually makes a lot of sense. That does make a lot of sense. I think the, the Ph.D. of library and information science is also application focused. My MLIS was. Yeah. [00:54:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Okay. And yeah, I definitely feel like American Studies, it, I mean it's akin to history. So it is very much like, yeah, it's filling in the gaps of knowledge and you know, building historiography. So that makes a lot of sense. I like the application aspect though. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:53] Speaker B: Which is why I think I still, I mean I'm, I'm a museum person at heart. So like to me I'm like engaging in education public is like, will always be a core part of what I do and is the reason why I started doing social media is because I was hold up writing like doing coursework, doing the research and I was like, well I, I missed the, the education component, the public Component, like. [00:55:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, I just actually, you know, built up my consulting skills site. I want to eventually get into digital artifacts consulting work. I think I sent over 50 emails in the last two weeks just to different institutions globally and in the US that's awesome that I am here. I am president. This is my passion and my study. And so, yes, I exist. Kind of putting that out there, you know, [00:55:48] Speaker B: she is here for your digital artifacts. I love it. Well, that's the thing. Like, you have. You have to just. People don't. People don't know you're here. You have to, like, you have to, like, make it known. And I think, you know, you are. Well, you understand the complexities of digital preservation. Like, and I don't think people are fully. I mean, I think that's something you and I could talk about for a long time is like, oh, yeah, what digital preservation is. And, like, there needs to actually be better literacy around it. [00:56:24] Speaker A: Yep. You're. Yep. Right on the same track. And, you know, maybe even we'll collaborate together and consult together as a team and go get that research grant and we'll get out there and tackle all. You know, we're gonna get out there, we're gonna do the things. Yeah. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Reach out to us. We're here. [00:56:46] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. We'll be a strong team together. We'll have, like, the military force around us, protecting us as we go into areas that like. No. Anyways. Yeah. That's what has to be. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [00:57:03] Speaker A: Listeners, leave this conversation day one shift in how they think about archives, historic sites, or whose stories get preserved. What would you hope it is your end? [00:57:15] Speaker B: What do I hope their takeaway is? [00:57:18] Speaker A: Yeah, like, what do you hope that they would kind of, like, walk away with something that [00:57:27] Speaker B: I think I would just, like, I just want people to walk away with a. With an interest in and explore historic sites, paintings, museums. Like, I think I want. I. Yeah, I just. I want people to care about. [00:57:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:57:47] Speaker B: Care about this stuff. Curious about the stuff. Like, I'm not asking for much. I just. I want you to care about your cultural heritage. I want you to care about your memories. Because we're in a space where memory making and keeping is becoming difficult. Yeah. So being aware of that stake. I don't know, just like, understand that archivists, scholars, we're here doing hard work, and we just want you to care about it. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Care about it so that we get the grants for research so we can go continue and preserve and do things. Yeah, I love it. [00:58:28] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:58:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And I know we think about like, Jane Goodall's work with, you know, the apes and the species, the. That she did her work with. People need to kind of like, a lot of people are very familiar with her work. Well, think of that like us kind of like what we want to do, but on a different realm, a different subject, a different focus. We want to do that, but with like, for me it's on, you know, the works of art, the paintings, the relics, the artifacts that surround religious beliefs and the subject of Jesus. And it's almost like you have to narrow it down to a subject. Otherwise it's just so vast. You have to like. Exactly, exactly. [00:59:10] Speaker B: Which means, which means, you know, we're welcoming other people into that discovery too. Like, we can't cover all the whole vastness, but we care about it and we want you all to care and be invited and to doing that rigorous exploration and analysis. Yeah, it's just like, I think also just, you know, I want people to care. I want people to understand that we approach what we do with a lot of rigor, a lot of perspective and with empathy and care too. Like, we're not going in there with an agenda per se. We're going in there and trying to analyze and uphold like history and memory and culture of these, These materials as best as we can. We're here to cherish and honor. We're not here to, you know. [01:00:07] Speaker A: Exactly. And just the discovery, the exploratory process of what we do, to me is so exciting because, you know, it's. I don't know, it's just, it's just interesting and it's fun and I, you know, I love immersing myself in art, being surrounded by art, all of that. And yeah, I just really enjoy it and love it and I think it's [01:00:29] Speaker B: good for this, it's good for the soul. And it makes you like, just like grounded in your, like in the like, breadth of humanity. You know, you under, like. I think art is one of the best ways to understand like, how, just like how amazing humans can be. [01:00:46] Speaker A: Right? [01:00:46] Speaker B: Like. [01:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm so flattered and love the fact that like, you kind of got into my study a little bit. So I love that. So thank you. [01:00:55] Speaker B: Of course. [01:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:57] Speaker B: That's what we're here for. [01:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I can't wait to dive into yours when you're done. So we'll have to Let me know. [01:01:04] Speaker B: Oh my goodness. I know I need to work on it more. How did you, how did you approach your day to day? Can I, can I ask you this. I'm sorry for the listeners, but, like, [01:01:18] Speaker A: so do you mean once I started the actual. Just done with coursework, just diving into the dissertation process. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Yes, that's where I'm at. And I feel like I'm in the Pacific Ocean on a tiny raft, just trying to figure it out. [01:01:32] Speaker A: It was kind of like I had a very specific outline I was sticking to and it was just going back and this. Not getting frustrated, how many times I had to edit or change things as I was going. And just knowing that's part of the process. And, you know, I would say, what the. When I got to the part where I actually got to analyze the images and the digital artifacts, that was my favorite part. That's what I was looking forward to doing. So I think that's kind of what kept me going through the first part of all the writing and all the analysis and applying the methodologies, all those things. Like, all of that got me through that because I knew I was coming to the fourth chapter with the images and then I would have my. And so for me, that was just kind of what kept my enthusiasm going and my energy and just kind of like, you know, having my coffee and having the music on or whatever while I was working and just knowing. I think just knowing that you're gonna get to this end goal of finishing and getting it published and, you know. [01:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:54] Speaker A: I think when you get frustrated, no other people are going to be reading this. So it is important to, you know, stay on track. [01:03:02] Speaker B: Stay. [01:03:04] Speaker A: Stay. Yeah. I think it's just that enthusiasm of keeping it going when you know you're gonna eventually be done and you might discover something along the way, which I did, which was fun and coming to those conclusions. [01:03:18] Speaker B: I think that's the. That's the hard part is like, the. Just the allowing for discovery while also, like, moving forward with the plan, you know, for me, making sure that I'm just. I'm taking time to listen. We call it like listening to the archive. So taking time to just be there, take notes, like. But I gotta produce. And it's like, no, this is. [01:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah, your committee should help you too. Like, to keep you on task. Hopefully you have a very good committee. I had a great committee, so. [01:03:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [01:03:55] Speaker A: That's. It's. [01:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a process. [01:04:00] Speaker A: Process. [01:04:01] Speaker B: And I think you're right. I like hearing your, like, excitement for those, like, for analyzing the images. And it's like. It's true. Like, there's. There is this thing that I'm really passionate about and I'm really excited about. And so just keeping that at the center as my drive is really. Yes, I like that. [01:04:18] Speaker A: I'm gonna hold on to that. And I kind of did some forethought. I'm able to do that in my brain, where I was like, okay, what subject do I choose that I'm not gonna fall off the deep end in this deep dive of this doctoral study that most people don't finish or it takes them forever. Yeah. So I chose. [01:04:37] Speaker B: Can we Talk about that? 50% of people don't finish. That's crazy. [01:04:43] Speaker A: I know. It is crazy. [01:04:45] Speaker B: You did it. [01:04:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm like, I know. Still can't believe I did it sometimes. But, yeah, I did it. But, yeah. And yeah. So everybody tell Mary quickly. Tell everybody how they can contact you or get a hold of you or follow you want to share that with the audience? [01:05:03] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So you can. I'm on TikTok and Instagram. My handle is at Traveling Archivist. You can also find me at my website, snyderarchives and research.com. really need to shorten that name. But regardless, that's my website, and I have monthly. I'm starting tomorrow, monthly office hours, virtual office hours. [01:05:31] Speaker A: So it's. [01:05:32] Speaker B: It's called Coffee with an Archivist. So basically, I offer, like an hour where people can come on and ask their questions about their archives, their family records, getting to the field, whatever. So that's also a way to get a hold of me. But, yeah, you can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm most active. And if you're interested in getting into the field of archives, I have a free guide on my website as well to help. [01:06:01] Speaker A: Amazing. Okay. Yeah. And while we're on this subject, since I'm just. I'm just going to share it my Instagram handle in case people are listening. Besides the Dr. Random podcast is Dr. Sarah Consulting Services, and then it's Dr. Sarah Laveroni sells and consulting consulting dot com. And I'm sure in the future, I think we will, and I hope. Well, I think we're going to collaborate on some project or research or grant or something. We're gonna. [01:06:28] Speaker B: Let's do it together. Let's do it. [01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Sounds amazing. All right. [01:06:34] Speaker B: And maybe I'll be, like, so close to being doctor as well. And then it'll be the doctor. You know, like Dr. Dude. We'll workshop that part. But yeah. Okay. [01:06:46] Speaker A: All right. [01:06:47] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me on here and sharing your work and your journey with me, too. [01:06:53] Speaker A: It's. [01:06:54] Speaker B: And just letting me nerd out with you. It's been so great. Of course. [01:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been amazing. And thank you so much. And everybody listening, you know, check us out, YouTube, Spotify, Apple. And yeah, thank you so much, Mary, for coming on. This was so fun. And as always on the Dr. Random podcast, I'll say ciao, ciao. [01:07:22] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:07:25] Speaker A: And then.