Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Dr. Sarah: Hello, and welcome to the Dr. Rennan podcast. I'm Dr. Sarah, and today I am honored to have Amanda Wild.
And she is just. Her background's amazing. She has such a unique approach to different things with women and their health and postpartum and pregnancy. Pregnancy and all different kinds of great things that we're going to discuss today.
And Amanda Wild, she is an alumni in biology. Correct. Of Harvard University, and she's the founder of Wild Research, and it's an independent research and education organization focused on maternal health, and she centers on Matra. Now, you're going to have to help me with this word. Is it matrasine?
What is it?
[00:00:57] Amanda Wilde: Matrescence.
[00:00:59] Dr. Sarah: Matrescence, the profound developmental transition in motherhood and the mother baby dyad. And so I think I'm gonna kind of now let Amanda introduce herself and talk about. Can I give a brief background on you, like maybe personally, where you reside, where you are in the world, kind of. I don't know, whatever you feel like you'd like to share with the audience today, introduce yourself.
[00:01:25] Amanda Wilde: Yeah. So I'm from Charleston originally. My permanent address is in California, and then I've traveled quite a bit. I did my research down in Mexico in Baja California, where psilocybin is fully decriminalized. And there are a lot of indigenous medicine women there who use psilocybin as part of a lot of their rituals and practices.
So I was able to really dive into what psilocybin looks like on the maternal brain. And then just to orient ourselves. Matrescence is the developmental period, and it's enormous transformation when a woman becomes a mother. And so it's not just the social and relationship change, but it is cultural, it's economic, it's biological and neurological. There is so much neuroplasticity on the scale of adolescence when we see, you know, a hormone surge and all of those changes as we come into adulthood, those same kinds of things on a different scale are happening to mothers, really, from the pregnancy surge and then certainly after labor, birth, delivery, and then into the acute postpartum.
[00:02:40] Dr. Sarah: Okay. Wow, that's sounds very key. And I feel like, you know, specialized, but neutralizing, too, at the same time for dealing with all of this as a mother, new mother in the different stages.
And a kind of something that kind of came up in my research on you, or two kind of looks like terms and describing two things, which was minds. And Is it kea? Minds and kea.
[00:03:09] Amanda Wilde: Yes.
[00:03:10] Dr. Sarah: Do you kind of want to go over what that.
[00:03:12] Amanda Wilde: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So mind is my Theoretical framework that I developed, and it stands for matrescent integration via neuroplasticity, dyads and psilocybin. And what I really want women to know is we can take the psilocybin off and this can just be mined. Right, Right. So looking at how can we integrate matrescent identity with just the neuroplasticity and the dyads.
So minds combines four elements, which is matrescent integration, and that is like the developmental goal.
Neuroplasticity is the biological substrate. The dyad is what I believe should be the central unit of postpartum care. Because the dyad. So the mother and the baby are. Are not individuals. They are inextricably linked pair. Like they are a new being, a new entity where cells are in communication, brain waves, heart rate, breathing patterns, all of that syncs up between a mother and her infant.
So rather than isolating these two and looking at only the mother and her symptoms, or looking at only whether or not the infant is thriving, misses an enormous piece of the puzzle. And then that last piece of mine, psilocybin, this is a novel candidate intervention for postpartum care.
And then we can kind of get into the mechanisms of that. But first, I'll go ahead.
[00:04:46] Dr. Sarah: Fine.
[00:04:46] Amanda Wilde: So those are. That's like the mechanisms, the neuroplasticity.
[00:04:49] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:04:49] Amanda Wilde: Then on the other side of things, you have the phenomenology. So what is the experience of matrescence like?
And I kind of roadmaped that down into exposure, expansion, and integration.
And then this also, this phenomenological experiential arc, which I call the core with a K, so that you can think of it as. The key is I really believe that this. Understanding this is the key to at least knowing what a successful matrescent integration looks like.
I would never distill it down to where, like, if you just know this, then your postpartum is going to be fine. No, we. There's partner support or lack thereof. There is a lack of sleep. There are structural. Structural and economic realities that the key and. Or psilocybin are not going to solve all of. But I think that at least gives you a roadmap to say, is what I'm feeling normal, not just common? But is this actually normal, or is this a pathology that I do need to seek help for?
[00:05:56] Dr. Sarah: Okay, that's.
I can't imagine how key. Having you by the side of a mother was just key. And so how do you work yourself into integrating yourself into the lives of the mother? Like, your reach. I Guess I'm just curious if you don't blame charity.
[00:06:17] Amanda Wilde: So far it's been word of mouth and I kind of like that. Right now I do want this to expand far and wide, but right now we are just starting the research that can give us the first bit of data on psilocybin during the postpartum period. So I'm enrolled in a study right now. If you know of anyone or if anyone who sees this is interested, please feel free to reach out to me. I'm sure we'll share my content information.
Where women who are between six weeks and one year postpartum who are interested in taking psilocybin, they will start with psycho. A battery of psychometric assessments. Really? Just like you would if you went to a therapist of sorts.
On their own, I cannot provide it on their own, they will go and do psilocybin and then come back and do these psychometric assessments again. Narrative interview. And as a longitudinal study, I would love it if women would be willing to Repeat those at 3 months, 6 months and a year, of course, stop at any time, even if you start it. But that is really going to give us the first information that isn't anecdotal, which we have a ton of to say. Is there an improvement in. In the. In my anxiety, my depression, my life satisfaction, my parental confidence? Do I feel more bonded with my baby? And really looking at that before and after longitudinally, using these same scales.
And if we see that anxiety increases, and not just transiently, but if we see that, oh, at six, three months, six months and a year, they actually had more anxiety than when we started. And if we see that as a pattern.
That's what I've said. We stop. Right? If someone didn't have suicidal thoughts, and now at three months, six months, in a year, they do, we stop. This is not the treatment. So I am dedicated to psilocybin. I have looked at the research. I think that the hypothesis should be tested, but I'm really only interested in continuing with this intervention if we're like, wow, this really helps women.
[00:08:27] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, that's.
Your research is profound. And I think that, you know, I hear a lot about postpartum, but I don't. You know, you always hear it kind of in different. It almost seems like to be popping up in conversation or you hear it here and there, you know, popping up through the newsfeed on social media. So it's definitely something that sounds like there's. Like you said, there's still a frontier of it of research. To be done. It sounds like you're tackling that, which is amazing.
[00:08:56] Amanda Wilde: Yes. Thank you. Yes. The first research of its kind in this area.
[00:09:02] Dr. Sarah: Okay. Kudos to you. That's a.
[00:09:04] Amanda Wilde: That's.
[00:09:04] Dr. Sarah: Yay. Okay.
And.
And you may have touched on it briefly, but what first drew you to connect maybe some of your own experiences of motherhood, you know, with the science of. I'm gonna say it wrong again.
And neuroplasticity.
Yeah. And maybe the. And it sounds like. Did you have, you know, personally, something that you feel like drew you to the study and the.
In the mind's framework and all of that in this. In the Psycho.
Psycho. Knew it. Am I saying that right? Psychonaut. Psychonaut, yes.
Yeah.
[00:09:43] Amanda Wilde: So I was already enrolled at Harvard for the neuroscience biology, but my focus is on neuroscience. I always have to because, like, I did not study marine mammals.
And so I was already enrolled in that and really just kind of trying to understand which part of the brain am I interested in. I come from a yoga background, so I know that the breath controls the mind.
[00:10:10] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Amanda Wilde: How you're breathing can control what you're thinking about, how you feel. And so that's really where that interest came from. And then my daughter was born preterm at 28 weeks.
And so we were in the NICU and I was telepathic with her on days where, you know, I'd be like, can I leave tonight? Like, can I go home? Are you okay Here? I found a nurse that I trust. She's going to be here all night. And if I got a no from my daughter, inevitably something would happen that I would be so glad that I stayed.
An eye exam that they were going to do at midnight that no one had told me about or something with an NG tube.
And on the nights that she gave me a clear yes, I would go home. We both sleep perfectly. I'd get back first thing in the morning.
And it was this feeling and this anchor inside of me that nobody was going to tell me was not happening.
No coat. Not all of the Western literature in the world. Not another mom or mother in law. Like, I. We were telepathic and I just kept looking around like, I. Aren't other women experiencing this? Everyone must be experienced. This must be a new mom thing. This is women's intuition.
[00:11:24] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:11:25] Amanda Wilde: Thousandfold. And I just haven't heard about it. And I didn't feel like the other women were experiencing this.
[00:11:32] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:11:33] Amanda Wilde: And so that had me, like, really dive in. Okay, so then what could it be? Why am I so. Because maybe they are experiencing it, and they're writing it off.
And so I kept looking at, like, why am I so certain of this? And the only thing that I could equate it to that felt so familiar was my experience with psilocybin in, like, my teen and early twenties. Like, I was talking to trees, I was talking to the clouds, and no one can tell me otherwise.
And so then I started, you know, I had so much time in the NICU to learn about not only the things happening with an infant in the NICU and infant development and what's appropriate, but also for mothers, what is happening. And that's really where I started to deep dive and see so many of these parallels and then map them on top of each other. And the same plasticity in the same substrate that are happening in matrescence are happening when you have a psilocybin experience.
[00:12:31] Dr. Sarah: Okay, wow. This is all new information for me, the terms. And I'm just like. I think it's amazing. And I think that you're touching on something that I think everybody. I would think we're human if we have any kind of spiritual capacity in us and we tap into that. I mean, I'm sorry, but I know everybody's probably experienced, or maybe they still want to admit it, what you're saying, you know, because there's kind of a stigma around it or a taboo to say that, like, you're feeling like you're, you know, picking up or communicating on things.
[00:13:01] Amanda Wilde: Yes.
[00:13:02] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
You kind of get me into actually part of my doctoral study, which I think you might find interesting, which you wouldn't think would come out of doing digital artifacts of paintings, but I focused on the subject of Jesus. But one of the things that I did actually, was I felt something happen as I was studying the works of the embodiment of Mary with the baby.
And I had a moment where, like, it's kind of like what you're talking about, where I felt something where I was like.
And, you know, whether people believe or not, it's just something that I experienced during the study. And I talk about it as one of my conclusions and where I thought about how a God, like, of the universe, who, you know, in my belief and not everybody, but it's, like, created this massive universe of, like, around us that we can't picture, bigger than we can even fathom. You know, they say that, like, it's infinity beyond the fact that came in the form of a baby boy to be vulnerable in the arms of Mary, a mother.
And how I picked up on this, like that connection and that powerfulness behind the beauty of the works and everything. And so what you're talking about makes me think of that and like just the embodiment of the mother and the baby.
[00:14:26] Amanda Wilde: Yes.
[00:14:27] Dr. Sarah: And how powerful that is and how vulnerable that is.
And so anyways, I just thought I would touch on that real quick. Yeah.
And you know, me, myself, you know, I. I can't say I'm sitting here learning just like everybody else. And I, I can't speak to being a mother. I'm not a mother. And I actually never been pregnant. But, um, doesn't mean I don't want to be.
But I am just going to be soaking all this in today with our podcast session here and just learning. I'm already learning so much from you. So.
And I think it's amazing.
And do you. Could you kind of go into describing yourself as the psychonaut? And I think we kind of went into a little bit already. But how do the identities.
And if you want to backtrack on what I just said to feel but with those identities from each other without one undermining the other between the.
[00:15:24] Amanda Wilde: Absolutely. So a psychonaut is someone who is an explorer of or willing to explore their own mind and psyche.
So, yes, this might mean psychedelics. And I think that we can get stuck on it just meaning psychedelics because they have that root, but it's any altered state of consciousness. So I have been a psychonaut and explorer of my own mind much more through meditation for many more sessions and many more hours than I have with any psychedelics. You can also do it with lucid dreaming is an example of a psycho not experience.
[00:15:59] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:16:00] Amanda Wilde: Sensory deprivation.
So, like, if you've been in a float tank, you could consider yourself a psychonaut.
And I think what it.
When I put that on my website or identify is that I want people to know that I am willing to not only enter subjective experience and take it seriously, but I'm willing to take yours seriously.
I believe you and your subjective experience. I believe you when you say that you had that experience of looking at.
Maybe there was some bit of intuition or something inexplicable with Mary and the baby in this painting. I think you said in this painting that you were looking at. I believe that. And if you say that that changed your life, I'm not going to challenge you to say, no, it didn't. Or I can explain it with this, that or the other.
But my responsibility as a researcher is to let that experience, mind mine and others inform the questions.
Not so Much predetermined the answers. But had I not had that experience as a psychonaut, whether it be in meditation or with psilocybin, I don't think I could have come up with the question that has now led me to finding these overlaps in the neuroplasticity and the phenomenological experience of these.
These two states of being.
[00:17:23] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, that's.
I think I would hope that people have an open mind, want to tap into that within themselves. I mean, I think it's healthy. So I've just never heard it described with the term before. And I think that maybe a lot of us. I mean, I would think. I mean, I feel like I do where you're. You are tapping into that, you know.
And you know, I just think about experience. Like you said, floating in water, it's so relaxing to just lay back. And you know, I love like some of the favorite things I do that just feels so good to the body and mind is just doing steam room or sauna. Yes, I know people experience that cold plunge or, you know, yoga.
My.
I recently did a podcast on yoga and it's like, I call it. I've always called it yoga floating or like the end of the 90 minute hot 90 be groom style yoga that I've done for years.
There's a moment and sometimes I. I spoke to the instructor that was in the pot and I said, people get up and I'm like, no, lay there. You can't get that back. Like you just spent your. But you have this fresh blood flow through you and it's a moment of like. And I call it yoga floating where you can connect with God or meditation or however you want to like use that.
So I feel like. But I guess that would be called a psycho, not experience.
[00:18:53] Amanda Wilde: Possibly. Yes. Is that correctly or your mind. Yes.
[00:18:59] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:18:59] Amanda Wilde: Yes.
[00:19:00] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
And so the mattress Matresin and the brain science.
So for the listeners who are listening who may not know the matrescence is and why you argue it deserves the same sounds like in your research the same developmental status we give adolescents. Is that correct?
[00:19:23] Amanda Wilde: Yes.
[00:19:25] Dr. Sarah: What would you say is currently going on in neuroscience that tells us about the maternal brain and the postpartum period and what. Why the process goes awry. Do you want to touch on that?
[00:19:37] Amanda Wilde: Sure. Yeah. There are a lot of reasons why the process goes awry.
Especially in the west. We are individualized in a way that we aren't supposed to be. We're pressured to breastfeed without giving any resources for relaxation or, or nourishment so that our body can make milk.
We are pressured to put our babies in a snoop and then wonder why nobody's sleeping when co sleeping is biologically normal.
And so all of these, these things that like, we've implemented can make it go awry. And there's not just one thing, it could be a myriad of things, but what we see as far as the current contemporary research on matrescence. So that term was coined by an anthropologist in like 1975, Dana Raphael, and then it just kind of went dark. But her thinking was, it takes time to become a mother. Like there is a time of mother becoming.
And.
And that was from her observations as an anthropologist. And so now we are, we have the tools and the interest to look at FMRI and hormones and say, okay, what are we seeing on a brain scan?
What does that look like? And then how does that map onto lived experience, but also time?
So in the west, postpartum, medically speaking, is the first six weeks after birth. Okay, I don't know who came up with this number, but we see brain changes, like significant brain changes for the first two years and continued brain changes for up to five years.
Feel free to fact check that. I don't know if it was Carmona or Anthon whose research I'm citing there, but certainly longer than even just the acute postpartum is certainly longer than six weeks, Certain six weeks, like maybe vaginal or abdominal injury that we, that you're recovering from. But absolutely no other part of postpartum only lasts six weeks.
And so we're finally seeing, right, some like that hard data, the imaging of matrescence, where we can see the neuroplasticity and we're seeing these changes across the default mode network, the salience network, the reward network.
Um, and I think when some of that goes awry and when we experience anxiety or depression, there's an imbalance between our salience and our reward network, maybe. So just as an example, so maybe our salience network. So the things that we are giving attention to and that motherly nervous system of what, what, where is the boundary now? What now is scary because when it was just me, I wasn't scared of any of these things. And now I'm afraid that a car is going to come onto the sidewalk and hit me and my baby while I'm rolling the stroller.
Something that you would not, would not have crossed your mind before. So that is a salience network that is maybe appropriately high, but is it too stuck there because you have no one else to Bounce this idea off of. You don't have a safe space to return to. No one else is telling you that. No, that's. That's not just a common thought, but it is a normal thought. And then when we get into like, well, why is this a normal thought?
Then I go over to the phenomenological experience of it, which is that expansion phase with the experience of awe. So if you experience awe, you will then have to reconfigure your understanding, your consciousness, your understanding of reality.
Having a baby, any mother can tell you you experience awe over and over and over. This just like something, it's. It's mind blowing, okay? Especially in the beginning.
On it on an hourly basis, a daily basis, a weekly basis. So now that you've experienced that, you have to reconfigure your understanding of the world, including what is safe and what is not.
So there's also we, our own inhibition that, like, all stood on top of a tall building and felt the call of the void. It's that, what would happen if I jumped? What would happen if the wind pushed me off? No one's suicidal when you're thinking that, but it is a possibility that the brain is trying to confront.
This is intrusive thoughts with babies.
So I have heard so many stories of women doing a loving activity, a caring activity, a nurturing activity, behavior for the child, and simultaneously having a dark or intrusive thought. So breastfeeding my baby, but I'm standing in the kitchen.
Things that seem so taboo to even say. How could you even say that out loud?
Because the fact that we are not saying that out loud and not saying that, your brain has to do this in order to know where the boundary is now, because you have not only experienced awe, but you are responsible for this tiny, fragile infant, perfect life.
But what are the boundaries? Do I still have the inhibition that I'm not actually going to rip a limb off of my child? Yes, I do. But I need to confront that. And when we are denied being able to confront that and we suppress and suppress and suppress, it has nowhere to go. Whereas if you're able to tell your friend, dude, this crazy thought that I didn't want to think, right, it just came into my mind.
[00:25:31] Dr. Sarah: We.
[00:25:32] Amanda Wilde: We cannot always control the thoughts that come in. That's why it's called an intrusive thought.
I was standing in the kitchen, and now I don't even want to be near knives because what if I stab my baby in their soft spot?
That's an absolutely normal question.
And it Looks different for everyone because everyone's fears are going to be different. But to say that you. You don't experience that or having that thought is indicative of psychosis or anxiety or depression right off the bat is denying that it is a developmentally appropriate part of matrescence.
[00:26:10] Dr. Sarah: Okay. And that's all part of postpartum. It sounds like. Yes. Goes through a mother's mind dealing with thoughts like that. Okay, interesting.
And I guess I've kind of understood, and this will probably help you like the lay person out there who understands or hears about postpartum, is that it is some kind of like a. I almost feel like it's a.
How I've understood it and heard about it is that it's almost like you're.
You're angry at the baby for putting you through the pain or it's like you're kind of wanting to shun. Like you kind of are missing that bond or connection that you've talked about, the telepathic connection going on there with the baby, where it should be like, probably a loving bonding with the baby, but it's kind of like a. Almost like a friction, I guess you could say.
[00:27:02] Amanda Wilde: Sure. That can be experiences. Absolutely.
And I. Who knows where that comes from? Right. I think that is an individual basis of what. What are you missing? Of. Of nurturing the mother. That now the resentment is directed towards the child. There could be a lot of reasons. How did the baby even get there? Was the baby wanted? Was she coerced? Was she raped? So many things can start on that end of things. And then the baby's here.
You haven't slept. Why haven't you slept? Well, because the baby is screaming.
And so I think it would be a very easy, logical jump to say I'm mad at that baby because that baby is screaming when. If a woman has the proper support. Okay, well, the baby screaming should increase your salience and then your reward network. To say, when I soothe my baby now, I feel not resentful toward. Now I feel bonded towards them because I am confident in my parenting, my mothering capabilities that I can nurture and soothe my.
[00:28:08] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
And.
[00:28:11] Amanda Wilde: And I want to make sure that I don't reduce it too much because. Absolutely. Like, you're my daughter. Cried every day at 7pm for an hour for I don't know how many days, maybe a month. And so I'm not saying that. And. And my daughter and I were incredibly bonded. Like, I never felt that resentment. I believe other women, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That was not my experience.
And yet still, yes, she was the reason that I could not eat or needed to put headphones in or felt like an insane person.
But this matrescence, it is a full spectrum. And I think there is a lot between perfectly happy Pleasantville postpartum and psychosis. And somewhere in here we've said, okay, well, these symptoms and should a woman ask for the help and be able to receive the help, which are their own structural, some near impossibilities to have the resources to ask for help. And then you ask for help and then have some sort of reception where you receive the help.
But there's also this area of I'm not, I don't reach the threshold of my symptoms to be diagnosed with depression or anxiety. I don't want to be diagnosed with depression or anxiety. Maybe I am diagnosed with depression and anxiety. And I don't want to take pharmaceuticals for reasons and feel like this work that I'm doing right, right now, in this minute, I hope that it expands and reaches beyond. But right now it is for those women who are not interested in pharmaceuticals or who's symptoms just don't reach that threshold of being a diagnosis in the DSM 5.
And those are the women who are like, I don't like some parts of this, but I'm not thriving. And I think I could be, or I'm suffering more than I want to be. And for me, that's all a woman needs to receive some sort of extra support.
[00:30:19] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, that's, that's very intense. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, and it's a little uncomfortable to hear, I'll be honest. Like, wow. You know, and I bet that I just picture, I don't know, way back in the 1600s, they probably would have, like, if a woman shared that, they probably would have like strung her up or something, you know.
[00:30:44] Amanda Wilde: Oh, oh, yes.
A witch. They would have hung me in the town square, no doubt about it.
[00:30:51] Dr. Sarah: But like, you know, but it's, but, you know, it's. I think that that's part of getting into the frontier of the mind and neuroscience is crossing, like humans, the intrusive thoughts, things like that. It's uncomfortable to talk about, you know, but I think it's something that the more we talk about, the more we can address it and help it.
[00:31:14] Amanda Wilde: Absolutely. Then the less taboo it becomes. And so if we do have a crazy thought that we didn't want to have or didn't mean to have or the same one keeps Coming up. And it gets stuck on a loop. And you see postpartum ocd, which is. I mean, it can be anything from, like, cleaning, cleaning, cleaning the counter. I don't want any germs. And maybe not even a fear of your child getting sick. You just don't want any germs.
It's stuck on that loop to I don't think that I should be the one to give my child a bath. I don't think I should be the one to have my child in a swimming pool or around water.
And those things, when a woman communicates that to you should be a sign of so much strength and knowing her own mind that we show so much reverence for that. Look at how much restraint she has. She is so clear on what she is experiencing and on keeping her child safe that she is communicating that she needs. She. She thinks her kids should go to the pool and she shouldn't be the one who takes them.
Why is that met with any sort of judgment or shame or. You're a bad mother and not. You are a wonderful mother, allowing your child to have this experience, being able to recognize that you should not be the one to do it, but it is overall a safe experience.
I'm gonna let my sister or my mother take them.
And if we're able to work that out, I think that we can break that loop and that postpartum OCD so much quicker than if we're stuffing it down.
But also, this is not.
I. I might be saying the quiet part out loud, but this is every woman who I know is suffering with some. Some part of this. So if ever. Every mother. I should say, if every mother I know has or is suffering with some part of this, then it is not taboo, it is not abnormal.
And if we're going to really care for mothers, well, first thing we have to do is talk about it and then measure it, and then hopefully we can change it.
[00:33:18] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
And I guess I would say.
What would you say specifically does the minds framework propose with the mental approaches of do of, you know, health approaches that do not. Or why. Why the.
I don't know, the mother baby dyad rather than treating the mother symptoms in isolation?
[00:33:44] Amanda Wilde: So the dyad. I think, again, even without psilocybin, the dyad needs to be addressed. So when I think about reimagining maternal health care, it. We can leave the psilocybin part.
And there's so much to work with just in mind. Right. So we are looking at matrescent integration. So how do you. Because I Think a lot of our culture also is, you're gonna bounce back, you're gonna, you're gonna get your body back, you're gonna get yourself back. No, you're not. Okay, we have to let that language go.
Also, mom brain and baby brain are pejoratives that I cannot stand to hear. Because what is happening is we are moving forward with a profound adaptation that is going to make us better citizens of the world, better able to multitask, reprioritizes our values, to see the unity, the oneness in all. Mothers are so much more likely to look at the community and, and value the community over the individual.
So that, that is like part one, right? So the matrices and how do we reconcile this person who I used to be and the person who I am now? And that takes time, it takes storytelling. We have to readdress the narrative that's in our mind.
And then the dyad portion is that if a mother is having symptoms, what is the dyad relationship? Like, is she resentful of her child? Okay, why is she resentful? And we need to really get down to the bottom of that. Is it because her baby won't latch?
Is it because her baby won't sleep? Is it like, what is the peace that is making? Is it because she has no support? And her relationship with her husband or her mother or her mother in law or her best friend was wonderful until this baby came along. Like, what is the thing that is making her resentful towards her baby?
[00:35:43] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:35:44] Amanda Wilde: And then how can we support that as a dyad? Because that should be the single unit of care, the mother baby diet.
To say that an infant is thriving when mom has symptoms of depression and anxiety is.
I can't even explain how disrespectful that is to creation and creator.
Like, oh, mom's just a rapper. We've got a healthy, thriving baby. And if it's a little girl who we're gonna love until she's 25 and she has a baby, then we're gonna throw her out too. And then it's just that conveyor belt of not caring about the whole person.
So that dyad, the. Sure, the infant is an indicator, but so is the mother. And there is so much research on those early years, those first five years of whether or not a mother and child were bonded to how well that infant does in childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. It is. The mother baby diet is the single most important relationship in humanity.
[00:36:52] Dr. Sarah: I had a thought that kind of like introduced a pot. No, I'm just kidding.
That kind of popped up that I started thinking about was.
And I was going to get into the cultural dimensions of things.
But I'm kind of, I guess jumping to that real quick and I can go back to what I do. You think, like you're talking about taking the kids to the pool, doing this and that our world right now, the culture we're submerged in, where everything is very fast paced.
There's a lot of pressure to kind of like keep up with the Joneses. All these different things where it's like there is an expectation of this is how it should be. The kid's birthday party should be this way or this pressure of different things.
I'm almost wondering if, like, culturally, could there be subconsciously, like we don't even realize that's where kind of the anger is at is that there's all this pressure once you have a baby, how you're supposed to raise them, how what you're supposed to provide. When I feel like if you go back to, to like, I don't know, say, caveman area, it's just about the mom and the baby bonding in nature.
And I think, and I think about everything running around us. And it's like I'm almost wondering if we let that go and maybe a new. And I feel like that's kind of what you're doing here. But it's like, you know, like if I became a mother, I'd be like, I don't. I would try to be as strong as I can with not succumbing to the problem pressures that would cause what you just said.
[00:38:21] Amanda Wilde: Absolutely.
I mean, every.
[00:38:23] Dr. Sarah: I don't know if you get what I'm saying.
[00:38:26] Amanda Wilde: Cannons that it's all over the top. And it's another thing that we are putting on mothers.
The mom just, just needs to bond with the baby. And that isn't. That is more than enough. That is so beautiful. That is so much more beautiful than a balloon arch.
And yet we are expecting very first year to do an over the top first birthday party or to have the financial resources to pay someone to come and do the balloon arch and the smash cake and the theme and the, and it's too much.
And I don't have all of the answers for how we just bring it to a halt.
I participate in some of that. I mean, my daughter has had scenes birthday parties every year and but I, I, I enjoy it. And I think that. And I have had the capacity for it. And I think that I've also been very lucky living in Mexico where the Other Americans or Canadians who live there as well, who are part of our community. And certainly you, you, you might be surprised that a lot of the Mexican mothers are also over the top. I feel like we have more of a village and I shouldn't speak out of. Turn on a culture that I'm not really embedded in.
But I do feel like when they are, I'm at an over the top birthday party. Their aunties are there, their abuelos are there, and we just don't really have that quite as much experience in the States or in Mexico. But my friends and the other mothers, we've kind of written a lot of that off. There's much less. I mean, I don't know anybody down there who had a snoo or needed a do not or an outlet.
And if you really need those things or you think that that's going to make your life more convenient or your parenting easier, by all means. But I think that we get into this trap of more stuff and that might be the over the top birthday or the snoo or the what have you. Sorry, snoo. They're never going to sponsor me now.
But I don't think we really actually sit and think, is that, Is that the kind of parent, Is that the kind of mother that I want to be?
Can I actually co. Sleep with my infant instead? Like women and families have for millennia and we have some co. Co. Safe co Sleeping boundaries where maybe we don't have a whole lot of extra pillows. I'm not on any sleep medications.
Maybe it's just mom and baby in the bed. And I. So I do think that culturally, a lot of that, a lot of the gadgets and the expectations around women definitely contribute to the anxiety and the depression that women are feeling postpartum. Absolutely.
[00:41:15] Dr. Sarah: Yeah. And I. And just like our discussion right now, what we're talking about, and this is probably a whole other podcast, but it almost makes me think about men who are avoiding marriage and having children because they think like, gosh, look at all this pressure that society puts. Like two, like, I gotta do this and that and that. And it's like, like this theatrical thing, like you said.
And it's like, what, what about privacy? Just like having your home and keeping it like a safe dome, almost. Like, I think about, like, and I know this might be going off, but I think about, like, how men especially get out in the outdoors and they have to have that. They get back into nature and do this, like simplify everything, go camp, tent, camping. And women too, love it. But I think, like, it's like going back to maybe just simplifying the whole mother process and raising the children. Like what we're talking about, like just kind of simplifying things and not making it. So I feel like more of an organic approach, I guess you could label it. I don't know what's proper, but yes, I'm just thinking about that. But absolutely.
[00:42:20] Amanda Wilde: I mean, that is my biggest recommendation for new moms is how can you need less? Because then we. And this is getting a little bit away from the research, which I'm happy to do, and really getting into like, lived experience and cultural observations, which is every single outfit you are gifted becomes mental labor. The mental labor around outfits for a newborn to their first birthday.
Like, I, I'm. I'm looking up here just thinking about the stress it used to cause.
[00:42:56] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:42:58] Amanda Wilde: This outpouring of love. And like, let me. I want to give to you.
They instill. I feel people, you're giving me a problem unless I have said or you know for certain that I need another outfit.
Maybe I need meals.
Maybe I need a housekeeper. Maybe I need the laundry fairy. Right. Like, it's such an easy thing to do. And the hand me downs, which again, I'm all for, like that eco.
Because my daughter wore outfits one time and she grew out of them. I'm all for that. But this is also the mental labor that is placed on mothers. Like, what fits my baby? What have they not worn yet? That is important. Important. Because Aunt Mary.
Because Aunt Mary gave it to her. And so we got to get her in that. Get a photo. Photo and then rotate that out. Well, where are we going to put it now? It's in a pile in my car or on the dresser or it's more stuff in my house that I am looking at having to think about to do with.
But I completely agree. How can mothers simplify? You don't need a white warmer because it's probably just going to turn those wipes into bacteria. Rub it between your hands real quick. Wipe their bottom. Finish it up.
[00:44:11] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:44:12] Amanda Wilde: And it's just this.
It's the more, More, more culture that I think when we scale back and it maybe it's also goes into, you know, a lot of cultures honor the 40 days of just bonding for. For the immediate family. Grandma doesn't come to visit, nothing. And I think that that would be a really good place to start if culturally we could bring some pieces of that into how we even begin postpartum.
[00:44:40] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:44:40] Amanda Wilde: Yeah.
[00:44:41] Dr. Sarah: This is amazing.
Yeah. And kind of going back to your research landscape and the controversy. So postpartum women have largely like been excluded from psychedelic clinical trials. And so what would you say is, I don't know, the scientific and ethical case for ending that exclusion.
[00:45:03] Amanda Wilde: And yeah, the ethical case is women deserve care and they deserve all of the innovative, all of the resources that are out there, all of the innovative treatments and therapies, and they deserve it first.
[00:45:19] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:45:19] Amanda Wilde: But before any other subset of human beings, mothers deserve it first, especially if it's looking like it's something that could help significantly, as it has with, with ptsd, end of life care, potentially dementia, trauma, anxiety.
And so I think the only ethical thing to do is, okay, we didn't put postpartum women first in the trials, but now that we're seeing that there is some data that there are benefits to this, women and mothers need to receive it first. We've been excluded from so many parts of healthcare for so long, and not even just healthcare, but like how the seat belts work on women, we're not really sure. Does Ambien work on women? I don't know. We'll just give it to them anyway.
And we have seen that no ambient is not great for women.
So really, why have women been excluded? And we'll get the answer of, oh, well, you know, their menstrual cycle makes it hard to study or the lactation component or.
And I think the lactation component is an important discussion to have because we don't have any human data on the transfer of psilocin to milk.
We can make some educated guesses, but I think so why were women not given the option to pump and dump? The way that, you know, if you go out and have a couple of drinks, you come home, you pump and dump and then you're fine the next day.
That should have been.
That should. That should solve. The immediate issue is having this option to pump and dump rather than the solution being, well, let's just exclude postpartum women altogether.
[00:47:17] Dr. Sarah: Wow, this is all amazing. What the research you're doing is just off the charts to me. I love it. And, and it sounds like what I kind of picked up on researching about YouTube is the 2025 UC Davis. There was a study on postpartum specific increases in anxiety, like behavior and lasting effects on offspring.
Like you just said, via the lactation. Yes, kind of. I don't know. What would you say in a study looks like for applying to, I guess you would say the long term design or the outcomes and the stopping rules kind of things. Like that.
[00:47:58] Amanda Wilde: Yes. So the study that you're referring to, to be so very clear, is on mice.
[00:48:03] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:48:04] Amanda Wilde: It is a mouse study.
And I think that mice are a great proxy for a lot of things. I'm not discounting what they found. It is great information.
Mice do not have the ability for meaning making, which is a huge component of a successful psychedelic therapy portion.
I also personally and as a researcher am not prepared to give 12 mice in Sacramento more weight than thousands of women.
So clinical trials done at a university here in the United States of America or the. Or wherever we've decided is worthy of paying attention to.
We do have a plethora of anecdotal evidence where women, real life women are saying it reduced my anxiety, it reduced my depression. I found meaning. I did not see any adverse effects in my offspring who I was breastfeeding.
I did not have any long term disinterest in mothering. In fact, those anecdotal reports, and I want to say there was another 2005 self reported. Might have been 2000, sorry, 5 or 26 self reported study where we actually are seeing a lot of women who retro. Retroactively report that. No, I had a lot of benefits from my psilocybin experience. I want to say that was the University of San Francisco.
[00:49:44] Dr. Sarah: Okay, Feel free to factor
[00:49:48] Amanda Wilde: again, it's. It's great information.
Let us study that the mice. But let us not look at this stopping point. Yeah, but first of all, listening to the women who've already done this, I mean hundreds of them, I think 500 at Michaela de la Micho, she has a mothers of the mushroom womb. I think it is, if you were to Google it, where it's another one of those. It's more informal than the University of San Francisco. Okay, but is this self reported? What was your experience after you did mushrooms postpartum or as a mother or while you were breastfeeding or what have you.
And then what does a study look like? I think to start my study right now, where I am asking women who are between six weeks and one year postpartum who want to use real mushrooms, which is another important caveat to, I think a difference between what I am researching and what some of these companies like Compass or Epic Biosciences are studying, they're using a synthetic. It's in a lab. Maybe the participants are in a therapy office with a blindfold on and listening to music.
Okay. I'm really studying the traditional way of using this medicine, which is to be out in nature, to be with A medicine woman.
[00:51:10] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:51:11] Amanda Wilde: Have your eyes open to be looking at the trees and the clouds and, and all the rest of it.
And let's just start with before and after and these psychometric scales which are validated, which is what are, what is used to detect depression and anxiety.
Let's. Some before and afters there.
And if we see that, you know, they were a one, like super depressed, super anxious.
No. No confidence in their, in their mothering.
They take psilocybin and it's a 10.
Okay, let's, let's, let's run in that direction. Yeah, we see that they were at. They probably won't come to the study if they're a 10, but let's say that they come to studying there and ate on most of these. They take psilocybin and afterwards they're a four or they're one. Okay, we stop.
Yeah, we're seeing that pattern. And I think that any increase in depression and anxiety, suicidal ideation, psychosis, any patterned increase. So not, not a one off. Like it was just this one woman or not. It's, it seems to be just in the first week after they take it. And then at months three, six and 12, we're seeing the benefits. But if it isn't a transient adverse effect and it is not isolated or explainable by something else that has happened in that time, absolutely, we stop. And this is not, this is not the answer. And this has not become a routine offering or choice of support.
But if we see that women are at a four and then they're at a six.
Yeah, we see that women are at a four and now they're at an eight. Wonderful. If they're four and they stay a four, I, you know, yeah, maybe we don't continue so fast, but right now I think that before and after is going to give us a lot of information on what women are experiencing in terms of postpartum depression and anxiety and maternal confidence.
[00:53:16] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
Yeah. I actually know a girl who's very close with and she was a surrogate and had a very, very hard time afterwards.
And she did the mushroom. I think they call it micro dosing or however you describe it, which I think helped her a lot, but she was struggling. And I know that's kind of a different topic from what we're talking about, but, but, yeah, but it's certainly that grief of.
[00:53:43] Amanda Wilde: She, she lost a child. Like, biologically it is a little bit different, but it can happen as like a miscarriage or stillbirth or you lose an infant. And biologically she Did. Right. So she wasn't receiving the bio feedback of the smell of her infant that her brain was expecting the lactation.
So yeah, I think that grief there is completely understandable. And we do see that psilocybin is very helpful with processing grief.
[00:54:18] Dr. Sarah: That's awesome. And I think that, that, you know, I could see how that would be very beneficial, like you said, with postpartum issues. And I think it should be, you know, it's like hard with modern medicine and things like that, how we want to integrate things that are, you know, considered more so I think that should definitely be encouraged from your research and everything you're discussing. And like I, and I agree with you. I think that you know, focusing more on the experience of the mothers over some mice. Yeah, but I know that's kind of part of science, but yeah. So I think that taking in, you know, their firsthand experiences and compiling all that together is, if you don't mind me asking, some of your research, your approach with, is that okay to ask, are you okay with sharing that like your approach on compiling your data or information with the mothers? Like, if you don't mind me asking.
[00:55:24] Amanda Wilde: So when, when mothers come to be participants in my research.
Yeah. So we start with that battery of psychometric assessments to see where they are for anxiety, life satisfaction, depression, maternal competence and confidence.
We rank their bonding. So it's how they do they feel especially bonded in terms of when their infant cries. Can they pretty well guess what they need to be held, to be changed, to be fed?
[00:55:54] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:55:55] Amanda Wilde: Do they feel like they're very far off? They can never figure it out. And then we have a narrative interview with where they are telling me about either their birth experience, their childhood, what, what their mother was like, what they thought motherhood would be like, and then after. And maybe their motivation for taking psilocybin. And then afterwards, what was their experience?
How do they feel like it's changed? It's a lot of very open ended questions so that the women who, they can just speak freely about their experience. And then later when we have a dozen or a hundred women, we can start to draw out some themes, if there are any.
[00:56:38] Dr. Sarah: Okay. Yeah.
And would you say so many mothers, it sounds like already using.
I'm gonna.
Psilocybin. I'm sorry, unsupervised. Right. And so what risks and potential benefits does that current reality create? And how should maybe researchers like how. What would your approach be? Or how do you, you know, incorporate cultural competence and indigenous knowledge and relational holding into scientific protocol without I guess, Tokenism.
[00:57:14] Amanda Wilde: Yeah. So even just that first statement of women are using psilocybin unsupervised, supervised by Hope.
[00:57:23] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[00:57:24] Amanda Wilde: Like why, why do they need supervision? If this is, this is a plant that came from the earth, they have access to it. They are a grown adult.
[00:57:33] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:57:33] Amanda Wilde: Who hopefully, like again, this is by, by their own volition they are taking this. Right. There's no course, they're not being forced, but they've learned about it. They are able to educate themselves on it enough that they're comfortable and then they go out into the world and they make this choice.
I want to give women their autonomy back first and foremost to say yes, go, by all means.
[00:57:57] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:58] Amanda Wilde: You do not need to ask permission, certainly not from me to, to access something that was put on God's green earth. The universe is greener.
[00:58:09] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:58:11] Amanda Wilde: And so that right there is.
I, I hope that women do. I hope that women do whatever they are educated on and feel like they can inform and have informed consent around. I hope they do go and do that. I mean for themselves.
But then, yeah, I think that there are some dangers in the world of a self proclaimed guru being Mexico or Belize and now we're going to do ayuasca or psilocybin or peyote or San Pedro and then actually those people end up being. Mostly men end up being predators. Right. Then there are, there's sexual harassment or sexual assault in these spaces. Absolutely.
But there's also instances of sexual assault and harassment at an OBGYN's office with your therapist, a hypnotist.
So I don't think that we can lump that with psychedelic experiences and say this is why you shouldn't do it here. Let's stop that. Because by that logic, well, we should stop men from most professions.
[00:59:25] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[00:59:25] Amanda Wilde: And then it's really coming back to like, let's have safe women who can provide this.
Let's educate our girls and women to have discernment so that they get that spidey sense feeling of, you know what? Actually I don't think that I want to be under the influence with this individual man or woman at.
In the jungle or at a frat party.
Right. I mean when they have those. And maybe you don't even get spidey senses because you feel like you're around people that you should be able to trust and it's still going to happen, but should have some of that spidey sense. I want women to have the discernment and the courage to be able to attempt to walk away Again, not that that is always safe or will solve all of the problems.
And then on the indigenous piece, it's. It's so important to me in my research that we are paying respect to that lineage. And when I am in Mexico, I am not the provider of psilocybin. It is an indigenous medicine woman who does. Who takes them out on the journey. I think that's a little harder to find here in the States.
But I really think that the being in a therapy office with your fake plant and your white walls and your Ikea couch and your eye mask and your music, I think that that is a distortion of the medicine that I don't want to participate in.
I'm sure that there are a lot of reasons for doing it that way and maybe there are even some added benefits. It's just not what I find myself interested in. I would much rather stay close to the cultural roots of. Of how this medicine was. Has been used for millennia.
[01:01:15] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
Such good points here. Wow. I'm less like I'm gonna be probably re listening and re watching this all the time.
And would you say beyond clinical trials, what changes every day? Maternal care and partner support or cultural narratives that would make the biggest difference for women? And I'm going to butcher the word again. Mattress.
Matrescence.
[01:01:44] Amanda Wilde: Matrescence.
[01:01:45] Dr. Sarah: Yes, Matrescens.
[01:01:47] Amanda Wilde: I have a whole Matresa. And Matresa is the. I don't know if commercial company is the right word for it, but it's just like this umbrella of things to put things. So I have like, I want to do a non profit. Do I call that Matresa? Is the whole thing a nonprofit? Do I have some paid offerings?
[01:02:04] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[01:02:05] Amanda Wilde: Search arm, which is wild research and then an education arm for providers. But I'm calling it Crescent Index, which lays out my reimagined maternal care and some of these pillars because I won't get into all of them. But I'm so happy to share that with you and in your audience and anyone else who would like to look at it and hand it to their husband or their mother or a state legislature.
[01:02:33] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[01:02:34] Amanda Wilde: And say we need economic protections, time protections. And I don't just mean time off of work. I mean guaranteed time to take a shower, to think. To take an everything shower, to think, to feed yourself. This needs protected time, not just something that we hope we chose the right partner. And he seemed like the right partner at the altar. And now we're having kids and I don't know because he's not holding the baby while I take not eager to hold the baby while I take a shower. I think that's another component of it too.
We don't necessarily need someone who's resenting us for needing the help we need. We need a community who's eager to help. Can I do your dishes, my friend? Can I bring you. Please let me bring you dinner.
Can I hold you? Can I hold your baby while you shower? Like you should. You hold your baby and I'll hold you until you need me to hold your baby. And then I'll hold your baby.
We need support, so time, protection, economic protections, mental health that does not have to read the threshold of suffering where we need a diagnosis to get extra support, to go to a yoga class, to be on a community walk.
We need.
It's reverence.
We need some respect for mothers.
And I think that the parking places are great. I think that there are not enough upfront parking places. Parking places need to be by the very front door or right next to a buggy return target, if you're listening.
And just general reverence for mothers and our capabilities. Because all of the, all of the neuroplasticity that we're talking about is not.
It is all an adaptation.
It makes us better and faster and more conscientious and anything that makes a good human being or CEO or driver person in traffic. Yeah, all of that is improving with our, with our matrescence and with the neuroplasticity that occurs.
[01:04:46] Dr. Sarah: Wow, you just spoke on so much. And I'm just envisioning all of this now. And I'm like, yes, this is needed having that, you know, And I think about too sometimes, like, you know, sometimes I think that's why we have, you know, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, like the family unit. But it's like sometimes women don't have that around them, you know, or they don't have that. And so that's. That's so true. It's like, what? I don't know, it's. It's like kind of thinking if, you know, new mothers, you might think, oh, she's fine, or she doesn't want to be bothered, but maybe just reach out like you said and just offer or ask, can I help in this way?
[01:05:25] Amanda Wilde: And to the culture of accepting.
[01:05:28] Dr. Sarah: Except, yeah, I was just gonna say that too.
[01:05:30] Amanda Wilde: So it's not women who maybe I didn't know that well, but for me, I don't need to know you that well. I need to know that my help would help you.
And they've been like, no, no. And at what Point. Did this become like imposing? Maybe, maybe they just don't you, they don't want you in, in, in their house or, or yeah, maybe there is a valid reason. So I think simultaneously having this culture of accepting the help, we can be the village that everybody wants so badly.
Because yes to your point, having good reliable family who respects your parenting choices and philosophy is an enormous privilege.
[01:06:12] Dr. Sarah: Yes.
And you know, you always hear about the intrusive in laws or something or things like that. And I could see how it's like, yes, you're needed, but respect how I want you to probably be needed. Is that, is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah, yeah.
[01:06:30] Amanda Wilde: I mean, I still feel like a lot of times family members will.
They think that they're handing me help or a gift and really they're just handing me a problem.
And how, like, how do we then culturally too say, okay, the, the mother is the top of the hierarchy.
Not, not the grandmother or the way that it was done before, not the father or the husband, but the mother is at the top of the hierarchy of what she needs.
And I think we've got to get rid of the judging her for expressing what she needs because it's not what you want to give.
[01:07:07] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
And I guess that could also play into when a new mother does reach out probably to somebody who has the experience of being a mother.
Like really listen, maybe like don't, you know, I don't know. So I think that like you said, when they're needing some information or want to reach out, it sounds like, you know, that's your opportunity to be needed and step in, but don't.
[01:07:37] Amanda Wilde: Yes.
[01:07:37] Dr. Sarah: Step in without.
[01:07:38] Amanda Wilde: Yeah.
[01:07:38] Dr. Sarah: So this is a great conversation.
[01:07:40] Amanda Wilde: Yeah.
[01:07:42] Dr. Sarah: Yeah. And I guess kind of to forward looking with everything.
What would you say is the most important open research question you hope that you hope the field answers in the next maybe say five years,
[01:07:59] Amanda Wilde: certainly sooner than five years. I hope the question of does taking psilocybin postpartum improve maternal confidence, mother baby bonding and reduce rates of depression and anxiety.
I would like to have that answered by the end of 2027, at least a start of an answer. Yeah.
[01:08:23] Dr. Sarah: Okay. And I hope that, I hope and wish that everything just goes, you know, down the track the way you want it to. And I, and you know, I really hope that for you.
And if the MINDS framework ultimately, you know, proves out, what would a mature evidence based model of psychedelic supported math.
Why do I keep doing this Matresin care look like?
[01:08:53] Amanda Wilde: It would be on the offering table right next to Yoga and meditation.
[01:08:58] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[01:08:59] Amanda Wilde: Like here, you know, yoga and meditation, Psilocybin pharmaceuticals.
It doesn't necessarily need to replace any of those, but it needs to be a. It, should it pan out, it will then need to be a real viable opportunity, accessible opportunity for women. Who would like to choose that?
[01:09:21] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, and I. I'm definitely a believer in yoga, so I feel like. Yeah, and I, I. Yeah. Is. Can. Is there any thing before we kind of head into closing and I have a few more questions, but anything that maybe, like, what message you most want mothers currently navigating this transition or whether struggling or thriving to hear, what would you like? You know, your message to the audience, to the world.
[01:09:54] Amanda Wilde: Yeah.
You are not failing if you are experiencing matrescence.
If you feel like you're not yourself, that is to be expected. It is not unique to you.
It is just a season that will pass, will all get easier. It will change.
And it's not your fault that you don't have the language for what's happening to you. And I am working as hard as I can and as fast as I can to get you that map. So that when you experience the intrusive thoughts or the time distortion of 30 minutes now feels like an hour, an hour feels like two minutes. That when you experience those things, you don't immediately assume that that is something diagnosable that is wrong with you, but you can say, okay, this is a part of the normal matrescence process. And I just as fast as I can to get that language to you so that you have a language for your experience.
And I believe you, whatever your experience
[01:11:00] Dr. Sarah: is, I love that. It's amazing.
And something I'm just gonna bring up, like, kind of the. The critic side of something where, you know, when you think of intrusive thoughts, of course, more in the religious realm, they're gonna say, oh, that's just the devil. Or demons are tempting your thoughts. Like, get that out. How do you kind of address that? That for girls who are under, say, the really religious spiritual realm and they have that kind of relationship and believe that there is that out there. How do you kind of.
I don't know. I'm just curious. Like,
[01:11:40] Amanda Wilde: because I am.
I. My initial reaction to, like, the intrusive thought is the devil.
That is a form of magical thinking.
[01:11:51] Dr. Sarah: Okay.
[01:11:51] Amanda Wilde: That I don't ascribe to.
[01:11:53] Dr. Sarah: Yeah.
[01:11:54] Amanda Wilde: But maybe the bottom line is devil or no devil is.
I. I mean, I guess what is the solution for the devil? Is it praying? Is it going to church? Because if it is, then we can call it the devil, we can call it intrusive thought.
Whatever we want to is the solution. Going to church and praying. And that works for you.
Good riddance to the devil or to the intrusive thoughts. Maybe it doesn't even need a name so much as. And if that praying is not working for you and you need something else, what, what is that something else? Yeah, you can provide to eliminate.
[01:12:34] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to touch on that. I hope that was okay, because I. This could picture outside world of people, like, questioning that or bringing that up with all of this, you know, and I think it's good. Or to just tackle it and talk about it and clear the air with it, because you know what I mean? It does.
[01:12:51] Amanda Wilde: Yeah, absolutely.
That I hadn't thought of. I am not in that world.
And there are probably a lot of worlds that I am not in because I'm so in the. I mean, my peers are psychedelic researchers, so we have, we come from a lot of the same knowledge or current philosophical beliefs.
So I, I, I, I'm, I don't know. Like, this could get a lot of criticism that I did not see coming because I don't know the audience or not even just here, but on a different podcast or in a different article.
Yeah, there could certainly be criticism that I don't see coming, but I welcome that because I'm, I welcome a conversation that we can have. So as long as we're all being kind to one another and leave room and respect for another person, yeah, by all means.
[01:13:40] Dr. Sarah: Yeah. And I definitely support what you're doing. I just think this is an amazing conversation, and I think that, you know, like, you touched on what we were initially talking about in the beginning, where you have those yoga moments, I guess, called psychonaut.
And, you know, so I've learned so much today, and I think it's amazing. And I think all the work and research you're doing is great for mothers and postpartum and the baby and just, I find it fascinating how we've even just discussed culturally, like, those pressures. I just think this has been an amazing conversation. I've learned so much, and I want to dive in more. And is there anything else you feel like you want to share? Anything? Maybe you feel like maybe we didn't tap onto or anything else? No.
[01:14:27] Amanda Wilde: Just a thank you to you for hosting me and for having such great questions, and this has felt like such a natural, wonderful conversation. So you really have a gift to this. Thank you.
[01:14:37] Dr. Sarah: Oh, thank you. And for anybody who wants to get in touch with you or reach out with to you what you're most comfortable with. And she has amazing websites, so everybody knows with her research.
Wild research.org Correct. Yes, that's it.
[01:14:51] Amanda Wilde: Wild with.
[01:14:53] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, Wild with neat and any. Do you want to share that?
[01:14:57] Amanda Wilde: Yeah, absolutely. We can share that. I'll say my email quickly and then it'll be on the site. But it's AMW2 8 8G, Harvard. Edu. Feel free to send me an email.
And on Instagram, I'm @mermandawild, like mermaid and Amanda together.
[01:15:15] Dr. Sarah: Okay. I love it.
And. And yeah, as everybody knows, if they follow and listen to the podcast, I'll be sharing the reels too, and linking.
[01:15:27] Amanda Wilde: Perfect.
[01:15:27] Dr. Sarah: Amanda Wild and so you can see her connections and everything.
And yeah, I just really hope the best for you and your research. And I think this is amazing and something that I think needs to be sound, like, addressed. And if I ever find myself in the position of where possibly, I mean, we'll see what the universe allows. If I'm gonna have a baby in the future, I'll definitely be in touch with you. Yes, Yes.
[01:15:55] Amanda Wilde: I love that.
Thanks so much.
[01:15:58] Dr. Sarah: Yeah, thank you so much. And everybody listening, thank you so much for listening to Dr. Random podcast. And yeah, go and have yourself a wonderful day, Amanda, and we'll stay in touch. And yeah, as always, here on the Dr. Random podcast, I'm gonna say ciao.
[01:16:13] Amanda Wilde: Bye.
